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Work Space Exterior Equipment

jar546

jar546

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Why is this never done right 70-80% of the time?

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looks like the outdoor unit is short on airflow clearances as well--there goes the high efficiency rating.
 
I think it's more like 80% to 90% and securing the liquid tight within 12" of the disconnect is around 95%
 
It could be just a disconnect without over-current protectives installed. No working space required.
 
Jar - are you that ****ed off your going to remove the unit, see wrench in hand. Heck then its time to get the sledge but make sure you turn off the power first, there we go agian with the damn rules.
 
ICE said:
It could be just a disconnect without over-current protectives installed. No working space required.
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Got a code section that states working space clearance is not required for a non-fused disconnect?

Chris
 
raider1 said:
Got a code section that states working space clearance is not required for a non-fused disconnect?Chris
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I can't help you with that.

The code says likely to require service. A disconnect doesn't require servicing. Fuses and circuit breakers do require service.

An attachment plug, pull out or switch can serve as a disconnect and working space is not required. I have been down this road at other forums and most likely will take a drubbing again but that's the rule here.

Here is a working space violation from today's inspections. The door of the panel-board cabinet will not open. I was the third inspector to visit the site and the other two didn't mention this. My guess is that the door was off when they were there because there were corrections to be done inside the panel cabinet.

Shirley the electrician will call me tomorrow and argue that all she did was replace an existing service right where it was before and it was approved like this before. I have been known to bend the rule a tad in the past but this....I'm sorry if this is gonna mess up your make-up but no! And what's up with the flex? Just how big a bite of the apple do you figure you've got coming?

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ICE said:
The code says likely to require service. A disconnect doesn't require servicing. Fuses and circuit breakers do require service. A attachment plug can serve as a disconnect and working space is not required. I have been down this road at other forums and most likely will take a drubbing again but that's the rule here.
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I'll start the drubbing. :D

110.26 Spaces About Electrical Equipment.Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.

(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized shall comply with the dimensions of 110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted elsewhere in this Code.
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IMO any disco is very likely to require examination. (inspection for internal damage and voltage or amperage testing)
 
chris kennedy said:
I'll start the drubbing. :D IMO any disco is very likely to require examination. (inspection for internal damage and voltage or amperage testing)
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There is no examination, adjustment, servicing or maintenance of a disconnect while energized that is likely to be required. E,A,S and M performed on the disconnect does not require that the disconnect be energized. E,A,S and M may be taking place on the condenser but that doesn't create a working space requirement for the disconnect. Sticking test probes inside a disconnect is not E,A,S and M of the disconnect.

Consider a receptacle under a kitchen sink that powers a garbage disposal. The attachment plug serves the purpose of a disconnect. Is the receptacle electrical equipment? Yes. Is checking it with a tester an examination of the receptacle? No. Is working space required? No. Why would the disconnect for a condenser be any different?

How about a junction box. It is electrical equipment. E,A,S and M would not require that there be energized circuits. Troubleshooting circuits would require energized circuits with the cover removed yet working space is not required. Clearly, troubleshooting is not included in E,A,S and M.

I am playing the hand that was dealt to me.
 
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ICE said:
Ya I've heard that before. There is no examination, adjustment, servicing or maintenance of a disconnect while energized that is likely to be required. E,A,S and M performed on the disconnect does not require that the disconnect be energized. E,A,S and M may be taking place on the condenser but that doesn't transfer a requirement for working space to the disconnect. Sticking test probes inside a disconnect is not E,A,S and M of the disconnect.Bear in mind that I am playing the hand that I've been dealt.
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And well played sir!...We require it here.....luckily for me...but I can see the other side of that one....
 
I think raider 1 and chris have drove the nail home. Ice if you can have a worm fuzzy with your interpretation roll with it, however you can get a the real one from IAEI. Just sayin'
 
Kevin Turner said:
I think raider 1 and chris have drove the nail home. Ice if you can have a worm fuzzy with your interpretation roll with it, however you can get a the real one from IAEI. Just sayin'
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IAEI, just like UL, doesn't enforce the code.
 
ICE said:
The code says likely to require service. A disconnect doesn't require servicing. Fuses and circuit breakers do require service. An attachment plug, pull out or switch can serve as a disconnect and working space is not required.
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IMO, a reasoned approach based on common sense. I can see why you've been drubbed by those who approach things differently.
 
ICE said:
Sticking test probes inside a disconnect is not E,A,S and M of the disconnect.
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You are absolutely incorrect about that. Testing for voltage is considered examination and can only be done while the disconnect is energized therefore requiring the working space. Testing for voltage is one of the few times that you can work on energized equipment in accordance with OSHA and NFPA 70E standards.

When an HVAC teck or and electrician is called out to service the A/C condenser and checks for voltage the likely location to test for the presents of voltage is the disconnecting means for the A/C condenser.

Chris
 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

FWIW, I will agree with raider1 on this one!......The test probes [ IMO ] would

need to be applied while the system / devices are energized, ...no disrespect

to you ICE!

mtlogcabin,

What edition of the NEC are you using?.....I can e-mail you an

electronic copy if needed [ `08 edition here ].

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
 
raider1 said:
You are absolutely incorrect about that. Testing for voltage is considered examination and can only be done while the disconnect is energized therefore requiring the working space. Testing for voltage is one of the few times that you can work on energized equipment in accordance with OSHA and NFPA 70E standards. When an HVAC teck or and electrician is called out to service the A/C condenser and checks for voltage the likely location to test for the presents of voltage is the disconnecting means for the A/C condenser. Chris
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So how do you mount an undersink disposal, again?
 
brudgers said:
So how do you mount an undersink disposal, again?
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Is it practical to provide working space for A/C disconnects?

It is not practical to require working space for a receptacle installed under a sink.

Therein lies the difference in the 2 situations IMHO.

Chris
 
raider1 said:
Is it practical to provide working space for A/C disconnects?It is not practical to require working space for a receptacle installed under a sink.

Therein lies the difference in the 2 situations IMHO.

Chris
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So you’re saying that if there are conditions that would make it impractical to have working space clearance for an AC disconnect; then it’s ok to ignore the rule.

Me thinks that the tiger is winning.

:cheers
 
gbhammer said:
So you’re saying that if there are conditions that would make it impractical to have working space clearance for an AC disconnect; then it’s ok to ignore the rule.Me thinks that the tiger is winning.

:cheers
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The rule in 110.26(A) is very vague as to what equipment requires working space. For example the receptacle under the sink would not be a practical application on 110.26(A).

Now IMHO it is practical to require a disconnect located on the exterior of a home provided for the A/C unit to meet the working space specified in 110.26(A).

What makes a panelboard more likely to require voltage testing then does a disconnect for an A/C unit?

I agree that 110.26(A) is grey as far as what is require to have working space, but I have chosen to draw the line at an A/C disconnect needing to comply with 110.26(A).

I have been that electrician trying to test voltage on the disconnect located right above the A/C unit, and having the A/C unit right in front of the disconnect increases that hazard that exists with voltage testing.

Chris
 
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