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God Awful ADA

conarb said:
I can't do that right
At my age that day may well come, in fact I've talked to many friends in wheelchairs, walkers, and using canes, none of them like it either, one said the curb cuts were fine but the rest of it wasn't worth the hatred they get, I don't even agree with the curb cuts being fine, having pushed friends in wheelchairs I find it no burden to turn around and pull the chair up over the curb. I have never in my life asked for special consideration,
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You are correct, you don't need a curb cut if you have a manual wheelchair with somebody help you but, if you are in a power wheelchair there is no other way to get up on the sidewalk without a curb cut. Some of us have no other option than to use a power wheelchair because of our disability. Like you I never ask for anything in my life and always was a giver but when I became disabled because of a severe illness I certainly learned to appreciate small things that made my life easier. Curb cuts, ramps etc. may seem silly and a wasteful expense to you but when you are at the point in life that you need them they are wonderful!

conarb said:
Number One the private right of enforcement must go, and all of it must go, it legalizes extortion.
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I agree, private enforcement is a curse and should be eliminated. However, the only way to eliminate it is to have some kind of public enforcement. Otherwise, everybody will just totally ignore the ADA everyplace. They already ignore it here in Kentucky because there is no means of private enforcement and government and code officials just look the other way! There should be a enforcement method implemented in all parts of the country so that everything is on an equal playing field.
 
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Msradell said:
You are correct, you don't need a curb cut if you have a manual wheelchair with somebody help you but, if you are in a power wheelchair there is no other way to get up on the sidewalk without a curb cut. Some of us have no other option than to use a power wheelchair because of our disability. Like you I never ask for anything in my life and always was a giver but when I became disabled because of a severe illness I certainly learned to appreciate small things that made my life easier. Curb cuts, ramps etc. may seem silly and a wasteful expense to you but when you are at the point in life that you need them they are wonderful!



I agree, private enforcement is a curse and should be eliminated. However, the only way to eliminate it is to have some kind of public enforcement. Otherwise, everybody will just totally ignore the ADA everyplace. They already ignore it here in Kentucky because there is no means of private enforcement and government and code officials just look the other way! There should be a enforcement method implemented in all parts of the country so that everything is on an equal playing field.
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Now we are getting somewhere, get rid of private enforcement, grandfather existing businesses in like Canada does, this generation of handicapped people will suffer inconveniences just like all prior generations of handicapped people, but life will be better and/or easier for future generations.

Another issue here, I know the owner John Herrington, he is another Stanford guy (we stick together) he is also a developer and I am frankly surprised that he has held on to that restaurant as long as he has, I suspect that he wants to hold on to that leased site and redevelop it into something more profitable, but we are surrounded by Democrats and as soon as he made application to redevelop that property there would be demonstrations and pickets all over the place screaming "Save the Rail Car", "Save Vic Stewart", so he can use the ADA as an excuse to redevelope the property into something more profitable. This is mere speculation on my part, but people use bad law to their advantage, and if I am wrong I apologize to John.

Wikipedia said:
In the Reagan Administration, Herrington served as Assistant Secretary of the Navy (Manpower and Reserve Affairs) from 1981 to 1983, deputy assistant for presidential personnel from 1983 to 1985, and Secretary of Energy from 1985 to 1989.

After government service, Herrington was the Chairman of Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, Inc. Herrington remains active in politics in his home state, having served for a time as Chairman of the California Republican Party. He currently owns Vic Stewart's, a nationally recognized steakhouse, with locations in Contra Costa County: Walnut Creek and Brentwood. He also develops real estate, and acts as an advisor to numerous corporations.¹
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¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._Herrington
 
conarb said:
... I don't even agree with the curb cuts being fine, having pushed friends in wheelchairs I find it no burden to turn around and pull the chair up over the curb. I have never in my life asked for special consideration...
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What happens when the wheelchair user has no friend to pull them up over the curb? The intention of most of these codes is to allow people with impairments to be as independent as possible.

Here is our barrier free regulation: http://laws.gnb.ca/en/ShowPdf/cr/2011-61.pdf

It still has lots of measurements. it's long at 32 pages...we'll 16 I guess, since half of it is in French...
 
tmurray said:
What happens when the wheelchair user has no friend to pull them up over the curb? The intention of most of these codes is to allow people with impairments to be as independent as possible.
Here is our barrier free regulation: http://laws.gnb.ca/en/ShowPdf/cr/2011-61.pdf
It still has lots of measurements. it's long at 32 pages...we'll 16 I guess, since half of it is in French...
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",,,If alterations are made to an existing building, universal toilet rooms conforming to Article 3.8.3.12. are permitted to be provided in lieu of facilities for persons with physical disabilities in washrooms used by the general public..."

",,,where alterations on the entrance level are made to add a sleeping unit to a tourist home, the alterations shall include
a) one sleeping unit conforming to Article 3.8.3.18.,
b) a barrier-free entrance designed in accordance with Article 3.8.3.3.,
c) a barrier-free path of travel conforming to Article 3.8.1.3., and
d) one parking stall for each required sleeping unit under this Sentence conforming with Sentence 3.8.2.2.(5)...."
 
Heated on both sides. These ADA discussions always are. Until the .gov changes the law, we'll be right here where we are.

IMO I think the legislation was flawed from the beginning. Kinda' like Obamacare. Takes some creative reading to justify either as being constitutional when applied to private business/individuals - the law / forced compliance should only apply to government/public entities.

But it doesn't, and my opinion doesn't matter - we're stuck with it, so just enforce it the best you can and roll on. Much like the rest of the codes - hard to be impartial when we let our opinions get involved.
 
1. ADA "is not" a code, it is a law.
2. The "code" (intended to mimic to a degree the ADA) is enforceable by AHJ's
3. Ramps are not the only means of rising 100"'s
4. Many benefits take time to be achieved, yes 27 years is a long time.
Attorneys only seek "legal opportunities" which was the unintended result of Unrhu. Bottom feeders exist in
many forms but so do those who seek to sidestep their "legal" responsibilities.
5. This tread gives much "food" for thought but much is poison (smiling).
6. As the late Ed Kemper would say, "we chair users cannot hide or like some others cannot change the colors of our skin". Does this mean we should stay indoors so as not incur the wrath of those whose us as different?
7. Lastly, if as Conarb would prefer there were no codes, would he be willing to be bound by Hamurabi and give up his son if one of his projects collapsed?
 
ADAguy said:
7. Lastly, if as Conard would prefer there were no codes, would he be willing to be bound by Hamarabi and give up his son if one of his projects collapsed?
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I really don't think that he want's no code, just the ones he feels are reasonable. Unfortunately, we all have a different measuring stick to what is and is not reasonable based on our past experiences. He is relatively blessed to not have experienced the discrimination that many people experience daily and as such cannot comprehend how this affects someone.

My father was the same way, but for a very different reason. He managed a store that was fully accessible. He didn't want it to be required so that idiots would build things that are not accessible and then customers would prefer to come to his store, as they could navigate it and shop independently. He said he has a lot of people with mobility impairments mention how easy to navigate his store is. I was surprised to find that a respectable percentage of a farm supply store's clientele had an impairment.
 
Thank you TM. Farming is a profession prone to many disabling injuries. Imagine designing an accessible dairy visited by school kids.
 
As an ideology, I would like to think the free market would influence compliance with accessibility codes. As tmurry points out, his father had an accessible location BECAUSE IT WAS GOOD BUSINESS. In theory, patrons who needed an accessible location would frequent his store, thereby increasing his business, and encouraging other businesses to follow his model to get their share of the business.
Unfortunately, that idea probably doesn't work in the real world. The percentage of people who need accessibility provisions is just too small to make most businesses spend a lot of money on accessible modifications. That's why the government had to step in and act on their behalf, something I agree with.
I think (hope) most businesses want to provide reasonable accessibility. The problem is in who decides what is reasonable. Right now, it appears that the legal system is playing a large part in that, via the plethora of lawsuits using the laws to make money, and not to address problems with accessibility (at least not directly or even as a prime motivation). Add to that, a hodgepodge of who and how the regulations are enforced. This creates mistrust of the law-makers and push-back by those most affected by the laws, which is also creating resentment against the community these laws are designed to help. This appears to be a cascading problem, with people on both sides digging in their heels. It doesn't help when someone "can use the ADA as an excuse to redevelope the property into something more profitable." That seems a little hypocritical.
This has and will continue to be a hotly debated but important topic, and as diplomatic as I am trying to be, I probably just ticked somebody off. That's the nature of the debate. But maybe through these debates, we can find common ground.
 
tmurray said:
I was surprised to find that a respectable percentage of a farm supply store's clientele had an impairment.
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Both my father in law and a friend of mine lost their hand/arm in a corn picker. Many times they have gotten looks from other farmers, with a knowing nod of the head.
 
On signing the measure, George H. W. Bush said:

I know there may have been concerns that the ADA may be too vague or too costly, or may lead endlessly to litigation. But I want to reassure you right now that my administration and the United States Congress have carefully crafted this Act. We've all been determined to ensure that it gives flexibility, particularly in terms of the timetable of implementation; and we've been committed to containing the costs that may be incurred.... Let the shameful wall of exclusion finally come tumbling down.
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We old people have seen our freedoms lost, the Bill of Rights was designed to protect people from the government and limit the government's power, and not give the government more power over us:
  1. The First Amendment gives us the right of free speech, and the freedom of association, if a crippled person can't get into the Vic Stewart, we would be able to say too bad gimp.
  2. The Fourteenth Amendment (passed after the Bill of Rights) says all people have to be treated equally, that means no special treatment for some.
  3. California's Unruh Act was promoted by Big Daddy Unruh, a horrible corrupt Democratic politician who was known for giving bribes as a lobbyist and taking them as a politician, he must have weighed 500 lbs, hence the name Big Daddy, but his concerns were his problems as a fat person (he did slim down later in life and was known for an affair with the movie actress Raquel Welch, since affiars by politicians are in the news today).
My hope was that a new administration would clean house in the Department of Justice and reform the ADA and California would follow suit, as it's turned out the DOJ is loaded with corruption itself, almost daily reports are coming out about corruption in the FBI, Special Council, and the Attorney General's office itself, the new Attorney General is doing nothing so there is no hope the the DOJ can be reformed, and the ADA is far down the list of corrpuption, at this point in time all government from the top down is corrupt. All I can say is be reasonable in your administration, be sure that your enforcement doesn't harm anyone or cost other's money, maybe use Bush's signing statement as your guideline and be flexible and reasonable.

So far this has cost society unknown trillions of dollars, whether Herrington is using it as fear of ADA or is using it as a way to get out and make more money by redeveloping the leased land is irrelevant, cities use it all the time as an excuse to get new city halls, police stations, and especially parks, it is bad legislation, capable of being used and abused, it takes from some and gives to others.
 
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Where do you come up with these statements ConArb?! New facilities in many cities and counties are the result of local growth, need to expand services and obsolescence of existing facilities, not the result of the ADA; it is only a component of the new/altered facilities along with FLS and structural.
 
conarb said:
On signing the measure, George H. W. Bush said:



We old people have seen our freedoms lost, the Bill of Rights was designed to protect people from the government and limit the government's power, and not give the government more power over us:
  1. The First Amendment gives us the right of free speech, and the freedom of association, if a crippled person can't get into the Vic Stewart, we would be able to say too bad gimp.
  2. The Fourteenth Amendment (passed after the Bill of Rights) says all people have to be treated equally, that means no special treatment for some.
  3. California's Unruh Act was promoted by Big Daddy Unruh, a horrible corrupt Democratic politician who was known for giving bribes as a lobbyist and taking them as a politician, he must have weighed 500 lbs, hence the name Big Daddy, but his concerns were his problems as a fat person (he did slim down later in life and was known for an affair with the movie actress Raquel Welch, since affiars by politicians are in the news today).
My hope was that a new administration would clean house in the Department of Justice and reform the ADA and California would follow suit, as it's turned out the DOJ is loaded with corruption itself, almost daily reports are coming out about corruption in the FBI, Special Council, and the Attorney General's office itself, the new Attorney General is doing nothing so there is no hope the the DOJ can be reformed, and the ADA is far down the list of corrpuption, at this point in time all government from the top down is corrupt. All I can say is be reasonable in your administration, be sure that your enforcement doesn't harm anyone or cost other's money, maybe use Bush's signing statement as your guideline and be flexible and reasonable.

So far this has cost society unknown trillions of dollars, whether Herrington is using it as fear of ADA or is using it as a way to get out and make more money by redeveloping the leased land is irrelevant, cities use it all the time as an excuse to get new city halls, police stations, and especially parks, it is bad legislation, capable of being used and abused, it takes from some and gives to others.
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William J Clinton signed this act into law not G Bush 41
 
Senate votes in 1990:YEAs76 NAYs8 Not Voting16
Bipartisan support
Surprised they are not blaming the black guy

One outspoken supporter, former republican senater, Bob Dole
 
mark handler said:
Senate votes in 1990:YEAs76 NAYs8 Not Voting16
Bipartisan support
Surprised they are not blaming the black guy

One outspoken supporter, former republican senater, Bob Dole
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Another strong supporter of the ADA, Sen. Orrin Hatch will retire at the end of his term

Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Republican, helped with it's passage.
 
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