• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

UpCodes is being sued by ICC

Much of the discussion is about what should be. The reality is that it is established that you cannot copyright the laws. Should we change the laws of the country so that ICC can continue to make a hefty profit.

Mark:

So far two Circuit Courts disagree with you and one does not, nobody wants to see the corrupt ICC fail more than I do, but the Supreme Court has to resolve a conflict in the circuits, why they refused to do so before is the question, the question is why? And what will it do when it comes up again?
 
Once went to the library.... to see the section where the books are stored :eek: and the only code book left was the IMC. Guess the mechanical guys aren't that cleaver or they have some morals, not sure which.:confused:

It may not be the contractors. Our local libraries have stopped carrying the code books. The Director claimed that they are not used enough to jusify the costs of replacing them every 3 years, or the even the space all of the code books required on their packed shelves.
They donated all of them to our department.
 
Last edited:
Not to just be argumentative, but: very few Congressmen/Senators have ever written a bill that later becomes law by themselves, either. So, say their staffer writes a bill - should that staffer copyright the language in that bill before it is passed and becomes a law, and then be able to charge a fee for anyone to access it once it's codified? Or; I write a few ordinances/zoning clauses/etc for the City I work for. They're approved by the bosses, the attorney, and then get voted on by our Council. Can I copyright those ord's/clauses, and then charge the City and/or the residents to read/copy/paste them?

Same thing.....

Just to add to this, there are many laws that are written by a special interest group, then given to politicians to bring to their government. Similarly, the special interest groups are supported by their interest holders. Citizen groups, trade unions, manufacturer's etc. pay membership dues and this is what they do with the money.

Regardless of the revenue structure, ICC will make money and someone will pay for it.
 
It may not be the contractors. Our local libraries have stopped carrying the code books. The Director claimed that they are not used enough to jusify the costs of replacing them every 3 years, or the even the space all of the code books required on their packed shelves.
They donated all of them to our department.
Public access is met With internet access through ICC and Many States (CA as an example, https://www.dgs.ca.gov/BSC/Codes ) Hard copies in libraries are stone age technology, and with constant errata and supplements issued, who maintains the hard copies at those libraries.

What I like with the UpCodes is it is copy-able so you can cut and paste. without paying the ICC for that right,
 
Useless
Our lawmakers don't read or follow it. Just look at current Politicians, on both sides.

Absolutely correct, I wonder why I wasted all that time in law school, standing up and reciting law, writing papers, etc. , then live in a world where everybody lobbies and gets laws for special treatment.
 
The information on the Upcodes Colorado pages is completely fabricated. We are a home rule state and do not have a state building code that dictates anything to the local municipalities.
 
While Colorado may be a home rule state it only means that adopting entity is the local government jurisdiction that adopts the code. Once the model code is adopted by a local jurisdiction there can be no copyright on the content adopted by that jurisdiction.

There is another wrinkle that could put the adopting cities in violation of the antitrust laws. States are not subject to antitrust law as long as they comply to the state action doctrine which requires that the State legislature, and not a home rule entity, must clearly articulate the desire to displace competition. Thus unless the state of Colorado has given cities the authority to adopt building codes and adopt model codes the cities will be subject to antitrust litigation. As the Supreme Court has established there are no sovereign cities.
 
The information on the Upcodes Colorado pages is completely fabricated. We are a home rule state and do not have a state building code that dictates anything to the local municipalities.
Glen
NOT TOTALLY CORRECT
The UpCodes For Colorado
https://up.codes/codes/colorado
Has a Tab that refers you to the following:
List of Colorado Jurisdiction Adoptions
https://www.iccsafe.org/about-icc/government-relations/map/colorado/
State Adoptions
Codes are primarily adopted and enforced locally. Two state agencies adopt state minimum plumbing and electrical codes respectively. The State Architect adopts codes for all state-owned buildings and facilities (2012 IBC, IMC, IPC, IFGC, IECC). The Division of Fire Prevention and Control adopts and enforces codes for all public schools and junior colleges (2015 IBC, IRC, IFC, IMC, IEBC, IECC) and for all licensed healthcare facilities statewide (2012 IBC, IRC, IFC, IMC, IECC, IEBC, IWUIC). The Colorado Examining Board of Plumbers has adopted the 2015 IPC, IFGC and plumbing chapters of the 2015 IRC as the state minimum plumbing code.
2015 International Building Code
2015 International Existing Building Code
2015 International Fire Code
2015 International Fuel Gas Code
2015 International Mechanical Code
2015 International Plumbing Code
2015 International Residential Code
2012 International Energy Conservation Code
2012 International Urban-Wildland Interface Code

They are not saying their version is accepted everywhere
Read everything and do not assume.
 
Glen
NOT TOTALLY CORRECT
The UpCodes For Colorado
https://up.codes/codes/colorado
Has a Tab that refers you to the following:
List of Colorado Jurisdiction Adoptions
https://www.iccsafe.org/about-icc/government-relations/map/colorado/
State Adoptions
Codes are primarily adopted and enforced locally. Two state agencies adopt state minimum plumbing and electrical codes respectively. The State Architect adopts codes for all state-owned buildings and facilities (2012 IBC, IMC, IPC, IFGC, IECC). The Division of Fire Prevention and Control adopts and enforces codes for all public schools and junior colleges (2015 IBC, IRC, IFC, IMC, IEBC, IECC) and for all licensed healthcare facilities statewide (2012 IBC, IRC, IFC, IMC, IECC, IEBC, IWUIC). The Colorado Examining Board of Plumbers has adopted the 2015 IPC, IFGC and plumbing chapters of the 2015 IRC as the state minimum plumbing code.
2015 International Building Code
2015 International Existing Building Code
2015 International Fire Code
2015 International Fuel Gas Code
2015 International Mechanical Code
2015 International Plumbing Code
2015 International Residential Code
2012 International Energy Conservation Code
2012 International Urban-Wildland Interface Code

They are not saying their version is accepted everywhere
Read everything and do not assume.
I'm not really following you Mark. I wasn't commenting about the legal stuff. That's not in my wheelhouse. That link lists the 2015 model codes. In the Denver metro we have municipalities on anything from the 2009 to the 2018, each with their own amendments. State only dictates electrical and (sort of) plumbing. I didn't spend a lot of time on the site, I was just curious how they handled Colorado's weirdness and it looked to me like they didn't handle it very well. I think what this site is doing is wrong, wrong, wrong.
 
Glenn, I hope your copyrighted?

"This is a rough neighborhood, when I was a kid, my parents moved a lot, but I always found them!"
 
This is all legal stuff.

In terms of copyright the same rules apply when your jurisdiction adopts a model code. At that time there is no copyright on the adopted material even if it is derived from a model code.

The other point is that there are limits on the autonomy provided by state law.

It is not clear what you see as the problems.
 
I'm not really following you Mark. I wasn't commenting about the legal stuff. That's not in my wheelhouse. That link lists the 2015 model codes. In the Denver metro we have municipalities on anything from the 2009 to the 2018, each with their own amendments. State only dictates electrical and (sort of) plumbing. I didn't spend a lot of time on the site, I was just curious how they handled Colorado's weirdness and it looked to me like they didn't handle it very well. I think what this site is doing is wrong, wrong, wrong.
So how is the information on the Upcodes Colorado pages completely fabricated?
They clearly state the individual jurisdictions adopt and enforce the building codes.
They Clearly state that State codes follow the codes outlined in their pages.
And they refer you to the ICC pages which says the same. If Up codes pages completely fabricated then so is the ICC Pages.
Are the ICC pages completely fabricated?

I thought your mission was to: "Make building code knowledge accessible and affordable."
isn't that what the UPcodes are doing? Accessible? Without charge?
 
Last edited:
So how is the information on the Upcodes Colorado pages completely fabricated?
They clearly state the individual jurisdictions adopt and enforce the building codes.
They Clearly state that State codes follow the codes outlined in their pages.
And they refer you to the ICC pages which says the same. If Up codes pages completely fabricated then so is the ICC Pages.
Are the ICC pages completely fabricated?

I thought your mission was to: "Make building code knowledge accessible and affordable."
isn't that what the UPcodes are doing? Accessible? Without charge?
I don't know how to respond, because you sound like you're getting angry at me or something... I just saw a bunch of 2015 I-codes listed and perhaps I commented too soon. I'll just retract my statement.

ICC makes their codes plenty accessible. The lack of "cut and paste" is not an argument...that's a convenience. My mission has nothing to do with this business. I create my own product.
 
Last edited:
Glenn, I hope your copyrighted?

"This is a rough neighborhood, when I was a kid, my parents moved a lot, but I always found them!"
I don't understand? Yes, the moment you make something original, it is copyrighted. A "registered" copyright is just a next step, more money, and probably better protection. You can still claim copyright without a registered copyright. That's why you have to sign a copyright release to ICC when you submit a code change.
 
I don't know how to respond, because you sound like you're getting angry at me or something... I just saw a bunch of 2015 I-codes listed and perhaps I commented too soon. I'll just retract my statement.

ICC makes their codes plenty accessible. The lack of "cut and paste" is not an argument...that's a convenience. My mission has nothing to do with this business. I create my own product.

There is another difference here. Glenn is working alongside the ICC with approval to provide authorized CEUs, whereas UPcodes is simply cutting and pasting without authorization.
 
Glen
NOT TOTALLY CORRECT
The UpCodes For Colorado
https://up.codes/codes/colorado
Has a Tab that refers you to the following:
List of Colorado Jurisdiction Adoptions
https://www.iccsafe.org/about-icc/government-relations/map/colorado/
State Adoptions
Codes are primarily adopted and enforced locally. Two state agencies adopt state minimum plumbing and electrical codes respectively. The State Architect adopts codes for all state-owned buildings and facilities (2012 IBC, IMC, IPC, IFGC, IECC). The Division of Fire Prevention and Control adopts and enforces codes for all public schools and junior colleges (2015 IBC, IRC, IFC, IMC, IEBC, IECC) and for all licensed healthcare facilities statewide (2012 IBC, IRC, IFC, IMC, IECC, IEBC, IWUIC). The Colorado Examining Board of Plumbers has adopted the 2015 IPC, IFGC and plumbing chapters of the 2015 IRC as the state minimum plumbing code.
2015 International Building Code
2015 International Existing Building Code
2015 International Fire Code
2015 International Fuel Gas Code
2015 International Mechanical Code
2015 International Plumbing Code
2015 International Residential Code
2012 International Energy Conservation Code
2012 International Urban-Wildland Interface Code

They are not saying their version is accepted everywhere
Read everything and do not assume.
While I would not state that it is fabricated, Up Codes just puts the 2015 version of the code under the state tab then refers you to an ICC listing for what jurisdictions have adopted what versions of the code. I would certainly say that the Colorado page is misleading.
 
I don't know how to respond, because you sound like you're getting angry at me or something... I just saw a bunch of 2015 I-codes listed and perhaps I commented too soon. I'll just retract my statement.

ICC makes their codes plenty accessible. The lack of "cut and paste" is not an argument...that's a convenience. My mission has nothing to do with this business. I create my own product.
Not mad or angry, but to say "The information on the Upcodes Colorado pages is completely fabricated." is wrong.
The 2015 International codes are the "APPROVED STATE BUILDING CODES" for the Office of the State Architect and State Fire Marshal. The fact that local Jurisdictions can adopt other codes does not change that fact.
 
Colorado page is misleading?

These codes, laws and ordinances we speak of, require someone or something to monitor the revisions, does anyone know if UpCodes is keeping up the changes? How often do they purge old code requirements and reset the info? That's got to be a nightmare!

Curious
 
I believe, as the courts have ruled, when the model codes are adopted, they cannot be copyrighted. You cannot copyright a code enacted by a governmental agency. That's why, they must be made available, free of charge.
 
I believe, as the courts have ruled, when the model codes are adopted, they cannot be copyrighted. You cannot copyright a code enacted by a governmental agency. That's why, they must be made available, free of charge.

As I explained above that is the opinion of the 5th Circuit, two other Circuits have taken the opposite position, hopefully the Supreme Court will hear the case this time around and resolve the conflict, the last time around thye refused to even hear the case, they almost always hear a case when there is a conflict in the Circuits.
 
Not mad or angry, but to say "The information on the Upcodes Colorado pages is completely fabricated." is wrong.
The 2015 International codes are the "APPROVED STATE BUILDING CODES" for the Office of the State Architect and State Fire Marshal. The fact that local Jurisdictions can adopt other codes does not change that fact.
Is there a state fire marshal in Colorado? I thought they had local jurisdictions looking after fire prevention. Would they be able to enforce a state adopted code, if their local jurisdictions have adopted a different code? Potentially if they are receiving their authority from a state law, but unlikely if they are getting their authority from local ordinances.

I do not see the code that the State Architect designs their buildings to as being very relevant to everyone working in the private sector.
 
Top