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Permit Fees are Nothing but Taxes

conarb

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Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
3,505
Location
California East Bay Area
This article was on the front page of the paper today:

Mercury News said:
Property manager and new developer Jeff Zell wanted to convert a rec room into two studios in a San Jose apartment building he owns.

But a project he thought would take a few months and $75,000 has turned into a two-year, nearly $200,000 odyssey of frustration, fees and false starts. City charges almost killed the project, Zell said.

The city initially assessed Zell’s renovation a mandatory park fee of $48,800 — revenue designed to support public recreation spaces in San Jose. Zell balked. For that kind of money, he could buy his two tenants season tickets to the 49ers and Warriors, with money left over for a pair of annual passes to the National Parks.

Zell hasn’t raised a wall or driven a nail, yet. “It just never ends,” he said. He’s losing $100 in potential rent every day the project is delayed. “I’m super frustrated.”

Amid a state-wide housing shortage, developers say they feel increasingly burdened by unpredictable government service and impact fees that are almost three times higher than the national average. They say it’s an additional drag on residential development in a region already battling the highest construction costs in the world.

Fees are a long-time bugaboo and budget-buster for developers. But towns and cities feel the fiscal pinch of Proposition 13, which limits property tax revenues from long-time property owners. So many municipalities raise service and impact fees to make up for those budget shortfalls to pay for parks, schools, roads and other city priorities. The charges also reimburse governments for staff time spent on projects.

Fees also provide an added bonus for cities resisting growth — high add-on costs can curb development and sink projects, especially for low- and moderate-income housing, developers say.

Pro-housing bills in Sacramento this year would trim fees, and at least one includes waivers to encourage construction of more accessory dwelling units. The bills also would insist municipalities become more transparent and regularly file fee schedules with the state.

Service and impact fees in California in 2015 were nearly triple the national average, according to a study by the Terner Center for Innovative Housing at UC Berkeley. The costs add between 6 and 18 percent to the median price of a new home, according to a sample of seven cities by Berkeley researchers.

For example, Oakland charged $34,500 per unit for new apartments in a large development, while Fremont assessed $75,100 for each new rental, according to the study. For new construction in a 20-home subdivision, the center estimated fees of $62,100 per unit in Oakland and $156,600 in Fremont.

Cities and counties maintain that the fees are needed to pay for staff time spent reviewing and inspecting projects, as well as for improvements to roads, schools and water systems for a growing population.

David Garcia, policy director at the Terner Center, said the municipal charges were one of several factors driving up construction costs, along with high costs for land, materials and labor. “It’s a complex issue,” he said. “It’s not as simple as saying, ‘We should cap fees.’ ”

Fees can fall especially hard on homeowners looking to build a backyard unit, he said. Often, cities charge the same rate for an accessory dwelling unit (or ADU) as a single family home, driving up costs for the granny flats and killing the project ambitions of many homeowners.

State lawmakers have ordered a review of local charges, with a report expected from the Department of Housing and Community Development in June.

Assemblyman Tim Grayson, D-Concord, authored a new bill that would require cities and counties to report fees to the state and create a database for lawmakers and developers to get a better handle on costs.

Grayson said he expects the data to give state and local decision makers a clearer picture of how to address rising costs. The goal is to bring clarity and certainty for developers, he said, and “get those housing units off paper and on to land.”

Builders say more transparency in fees would lead to fewer surprises and a smoother, faster timeline for projects.

Developers pass costs directly on to new buyers, housing experts and developers say. The inflated prices also drive up values and sale prices for surrounding homes. One East Bay builder budgeted $150,000 for inspection fees on a 36-unit development, only to see actual costs reach $500,000.

Jim Ghielmetti, CEO of Signature Homes in Pleasanton, said the issues have been accumulating for years. “Fees are only part of the housing problem we have,” he said.

On recent projects, Signature Homes paid about $500,000 to the City of Oakley for seven homes and $264,000 to Livermore for three homes, company records show. “We have to pass them along,” he said. If not, he added, “we’d all be broke.”

In San Jose, Mayor Sam Liccardo has pledged to add 25,000 homes and apartments to the city by 2022. But in March, the city revealed that it had issued about 3,000 permits for new units in 2018, far short of city leaders’ goal to approve 5,000 annually.

Liccardo said the city will be looking to reduce fees for large, dense downtown residential buildings. He expects the city to consider action in June. He also wants city fees to be more transparent, giving developers a better handle on costs before investing heavily in a project.

Liccardo said in an interview the city has to seriously look at reducing fees.

But any cut in fees would be too late to help Zell. He bought the 37-unit apartment complex on Richfield Drive three years ago and looked to upgrade the property. The two-story, square building, with a leafy courtyard and pool, is two miles from the Apple campus. Tech employees rent most of the one-bedroom units.

San Jose’s fee schedule has a base charge of about $10,000 for staff time and various review costs, a city planner said.

The city initially told Zell park fees would cost $24,400 per unit, a total of $48,800 to support public spaces in the city.

“Screw the city,” he thought. He simmered and sat on the project for six months.

He went back to city planners, and they discovered the fees should actually be about $38,000, still too rich for Zell’s budget. “I’d rather put the money in the property than give it to the city,” he said.

The two sides reached a compromise. Zell agreed to build an outdoor dining space — two barbecue pits, three picnic tables and some trash cans — in the courtyard. The city dropped the fees to $19,000.¹

Delays and costs in building departments are now so atrocious that I think it time to end permit fees, let the damn cities provide review and inspection services for free and get their money in other places, that way they may become more efficient and stop looking at permits as cash cows.



¹ https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/05...rtage-fees-can-hinder-projects-big-and-small/
 
This is a local government issue. Building departments are suppose to be financially self supporting and no more, but yes, municipalities in many areas do look at permit fees as a cash cow. Some building departments lose money, some break even and some are out of control generating an exorbitant 'profit' which is not a word that should be used to describe any government entity.
It is one thing to have a building department with some extra cash for capital expenditures and emergency funds but it another thing when municipal officials run it like a for profit company and put fees into the general fund to pay for other services. Yes, that is just another tax at that point.
 
The dollar amounts in the article seem exorbitant until placed in the context of where the property is located. A 1600 sq. ft. house built in 1950 that is located in a farm town in Illinois might be worth $80K. Move it to Fremont Ca and it's priced at $1.5 million.

Zell got a fee reduced from $48k to $19k by complaining. How does that square with all the people before and after him who paid the full fee? That's the biggest gripe I have with building departments. He who shouts the loudest gets a free pass.
 
They don't even mention the worst fee, the affordable housing fee, I once paid $67,000 for an addition. One thing I hate is when they merge the building department with the housing department, then those of us paying large fees have to wait in line with those coming in to get free (or reduced price) housing, The whole idea of a man building a new home paying high fees to support a poor man who can't even afford to rent a home is really communism (from those according to their ability to those according to their needs.Karl Marx).

In 2003 I was remodeling a home I built in the mid 70s (rebuilding all the failed gang-nail plate roof trusses and replacing the single pane windows with triple pane) and the inspector came to me during the final with an idea, how about charging more for the permit to build a home, but all future inspections be free to encourage people to remodel and update homes? I see his point, if there is anything people hate with a passion it's paying taxes, every time we get a permit the Assessors' Office is notified and the people are punished for maintaining/upgrading their homes with higher taxes. I didn't like the idea since I build mostly new, and of course now it would make new homes even more expensive than they are now since permits and fees are the largest line-item in the cost of any home.
 
... fees are the largest line-item in the cost of any home.
Conarb, your entire stream of complaints on this board is tied to one region of the world.

Yes, where you are at, it is tremendously flawed.

No, most of the rest of the world is not the same as where you are.

Yes, we are all growing weary of your repetitive sharing of the same woe-is-me BS.
 
Conarb, your entire stream of complaints on this board is tied to one region of the world.

Yes, where you are at, it is tremendously flawed.

No, most of the rest of the world is not the same as where you are.

Yes, we are all growing weary of your repetitive sharing of the same woe-is-me BS.

Ty:

I have given serious thought to going away, then I pick up the paper and see articles like this. You guys don't want to know what's happening here, you don't think it's going to happen in your areas as your cities and counties become aware of how much money they can make off permits/inspections?
 
Ty:

I have given serious thought to going away, then I pick up the paper and see articles like this. You guys don't want to know what's happening here, you don't think it's going to happen in your areas as your cities and counties become aware of how much money they can make off permits/inspections?
California is it's own beast and has become the mess that it is because of the people who live there. The entire economy makes no sense.

Not at all worried about the absurdity coming my way.
 
Its common to charge developers recreation fees, ask them to build firehouses, police stations, schools, improve roads and other infrastructure. I have to laugh when I hear let government get money elsewhere. It all comes from same source, us, the taxpayers.
 
The economy of California is the largest in the United States, boasting a $3.0 trillion gross state product as of 2018. As a sovereign nation (2017), California would rank as the world's fifth largest economy, ahead of the United Kingdom but behind Germany.
GDP: $2.797 trillion (2017)
GDP growth: 3.0% (2017)
GDP per capita: $71,209 (2017)
Population below poverty line: 13.3%

CA native here. economy seems to be making sense..........
 
In PA the locals are only aloud to charge 2% more than the cost. But there is mostly 3rd party profit making company's that do the work here which can charge anything they want and then pay a kick back to the locals, sometimes as much as 50% of the permit cost..
 
California is it's own beast and has become the mess that it is because of the people who live there. The entire economy makes no sense.

Not at all worried about the absurdity coming my way.


I live in IL - I'm worried about it. So far it hasn't made it as far south as me, but it will.....
 
Everybody should be concerned, a few years ago I would never have dreamed it would come to this, when I've been contacted I've said the first move should be zoning, free up the land so we can build, we are surrounded by land that is parks, greenbelts, and otherwise land taken out of the private domain, after they do that look at codes. On today's front page they talk about a bill in the legislature but they don't address public lands, they address infill. The goal here is fulfilling the long cherished dream fo the civil rights groups who want to integrate the more affluent communities with minorities, taking them out of low performing school districts and moving them into wealthy school districts.

East Bay Times said:
Could this be the end of single-family zoning in California?

Changes to the comprehensive housing measure Senate Bill 50 — already hotly debated — allow property owners broad rights to turn single-family homes and vacant lots into two-, three- and four-unit homes and apartments.

The changes could plant multi-family housing in even the most exclusive of neighborhoods, although experts say it’s unlikely to cause immediate, noticeable changes. If successful, the bill could make California the first state in the country to overhaul property regulations some say are based on a century of discrimination.

“It will allow for more housing in a light-touch way,” said the bill’s author, Sen. Scott Wiener, D-San Francisco. “Single-family homes will always be a significant part of California.”

The proposal comes as the state wrestles with highest-in-the-country housing prices and a crippling deficit of homes and apartments estimated at 3.5 million units across the state. Allowing for more density — called “up-zoning” in housing circles — could bring relief for many young professionals, low-income and middle-class residents overwhelmed by high housing costs. Seattle and Oregon are considering similar measures, and Minneapolis already has passed a new zoning law.

But in California, the proposal to loosen local zoning rules — long the purview of elected county, city and town boards — already has sparked resistance.

“This is poor policy and poor planning,” said Susan Kirsch, founder of slow-growth group Livable California. “It would be dramatic.”

Housing advocates say the changes are needed to overcome a decades-long neglect and antipathy toward residential development by local officials.

The proposal to allow fourplexes in neighborhoods zoned exclusively for single-family homes was incorporated into SB 50 from a bill authored by Sen. Mike McGuire, D-Healdsburg.

In addition to new zoning requirements, SB50 would bring other sweeping changes to housing and development in the state. As drafted, it allows heavier density around rail, bus and ferry routes, with taller buildings and apartments along busy traffic corridors. Those provisions also have drawn criticism.

Proponents say loosening restrictions on single-family zoning could be a gradual, effective way to add housing.

The bill makes it easier for builders to turn vacant lots and abandoned buildings into apartments and condos with up to four units, as long as construction conforms to height, size and design guidelines in the neighborhood.

The bill also allows property owners to convert existing homes into multi-unit buildings as long as they keep 75 percent of the exterior walls in place and abide by local restrictions. Single-family home conversions may not add more than 15 percent to a building’s size.

But it’s not carte blanche for builders. Owners won’t be allowed to tear down existing structures to make the conversions, and the bill will not ban more construction of single-family homes.

In Minneapolis, city leaders in December green-lighted triplexes in every neighborhood. The mayor and city council members said the effort was part of a long-term plan to add housing and break a municipal code designed to exclude minority residents from parts of the city. The move toward so-called “inclusionary zoning” would undo housing policies from a century ago that instituted and enforced segregation.

Jessica Trounstine, associate professor of political science at UC Merced, said the property regulations across the country date back to the early 20th century and were designed to increase property values and provide access to high quality services such as water, sewers, roads and schools. Minority communities were regulated out of certain neighborhoods by city law and developer covenants.

Trounstine, who has researched the topic, said housing policy recently has also become a force in economic segregation.

The bill could bring new housing and diversity to some communities, she said, but “I don’t think this is going to Manhattan-ize the Bay Area.”

Michael Lane, deputy director of Silicon Valley at Home, said the region’s lofty home prices mean small condo and apartment units are a good way for middle class workers, including teachers and first responders, to get into the market. “It creates more options,” Lane said.

Carol Galante, faculty director of the Terner Center for Housing Innovation at UC Berkeley, said the proposal likely would add a meaningful amount of homes, but it’s full impact would be difficult to measure.

The business strategy of most developers focuses on building large projects and residential neighborhoods, not small patches of infill housing and renovation, she said.

“This is a trend for all those places that have high job growth and high population growth,” Galante said. “It’s an important step.”
But concern remains with local officials, who may fight the bill as it moves forward. The bill still faces several more hurdles in committee hearings, public scrutiny and approval from Gov. Gavin Newsom before it becomes law.

Jason Rhine, with the League of California Cities, said the group has not taken a position on the zoning change, but members are concerned about losing control over community standards for infill housing. Small apartment buildings might not fit in every neighborhood.

“It’s important to have the conversation with the community,” Rhine said. “We need to find a way to add more density to our communities.”¹

Notice they mention Minneapolis, Obama, as part of his "browning of America", put shiploads of Somalians into Minneapolis and surrounding areas, we see two Somalian women in Congress creating quite a stir now, so even in relatively low cost Minneapolis they need lower cost housing for immigrant populations.

They are increasing density in line with Agenda 21/2030 recommendations and will be looking a building codes later, but what I am seeing the low cost builders doing is stacking modular homes so they won't have to abide by local building codes with the exception of foundations. As recently as 1997 AHJs were able to adopt any edition of the UBC they wanted, starting with the 1998 CBC (modified 1997 UBC) the code went statewide taking the local option away, they are doing that with zoning now.


¹ https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/05/09/coming-to-your-bay-area-neighborhood-a-fourplex/
 
Conarb, you leave me speechless sometimes. "The goal here is fulfilling the long cherished dream for the civil rights groups who want to integrate the more affluent communities with minorities, taking them out of low performing school districts and moving them into wealthy school districts." your white privilege is showing hard
 
Conarb, you leave me speechless sometimes. "The goal here is fulfilling the long cherished dream for the civil rights groups who want to integrate the more affluent communities with minorities, taking them out of low performing school districts and moving them into wealthy school districts." your white privilege is showing hard

I'm just stating a fact, 12 years ago I looked into building affordable housing, I went to the City of Lafayette and picked up their package for a development to comply with California's affordable housing law, I didn't move forward because one of their requirements was to provide examples of other successful affordable housing projects, and I had never built one before. Good thing I didn't, in the last 12 years there have been constant fights between those advocating for low cost housing for minorities and those who didn't want it there, there was even an election but the results were overturned by the courts, nothing has been approved so far, I'd have been 12 years in and out millions of dollars.

Something I'd like to know, with this new law they are targeting infill development in what are now single family neighborhoods, if they can avoid codes by using manufactured housing for small apartment buildings, my understanding is that foundations still have to be permitted/inspected, what's to stop the city building department from coming in and requiring fire sprinklers and ADA compliance to name just two code requirements?
 
I'm just stating a fact, 12 years ago I looked into building affordable housing, I went to the City of Lafayette and picked up their package for a development to comply with California's affordable housing law, I didn't move forward because one of their requirements was to provide examples of other successful affordable housing projects, and I had never built one before. Good thing I didn't, in the last 12 years there have been constant fights between those advocating for low cost housing for minorities and those who didn't want it there, there was even an election but the results were overturned by the courts, nothing has been approved so far, I'd have been 12 years in and out millions of dollars.

Something I'd like to know, with this new law they are targeting infill development in what are now single family neighborhoods, if they can avoid codes by using manufactured housing for small apartment buildings, my understanding is that foundations still have to be permitted/inspected, what's to stop the city building department from coming in and requiring fire sprinklers and ADA compliance to name just two code requirements?

"The goal here is fulfilling the long cherished dream for the civil rights groups who want to integrate the more affluent communities with minorities, taking them out of low performing school districts and moving them into wealthy school districts."

That is a position not a fact. You think it is a fact because it is your position. You believe it is their intention to integrate minorities with "affluent" (what does that even mean?) communities, because that is what you are afraid of. Looking at this logically, a proponent of a project probably wants to build there so that people want to live in their development to access the schools. I would hazard a guess that few developers care, or have even thought about, the integration of minorities with us whities. And if they did, it was just smoke they are blowing up some politician's behind because it sounds nice. It just helps get the project approved. They sell/rent their units. They make their money. For profit, not for profit, same deal.
 
"The goal here is fulfilling the long cherished dream for the civil rights groups who want to integrate the more affluent communities with minorities, taking them out of low performing school districts and moving them into wealthy school districts."

That is a position not a fact. You think it is a fact because it is your position. You believe it is their intention to integrate minorities with "affluent" (what does that even mean?) communities, because that is what you are afraid of. Looking at this logically, a proponent of a project probably wants to build there so that people want to live in their development to access the schools. I would hazard a guess that few developers care, or have even thought about, the integration of minorities with us whities. And if they did, it was just smoke they are blowing up some politician's behind because it sounds nice. It just helps get the project approved. They sell/rent their units. They make their money. For profit, not for profit, same deal.

No, even though the city had designated the property as affordable housing citizens groups sued, the developer came back with a proposal for single family homes and a "dog park", the city council put it on the ballot with two choices, 1) Apartments and 2) Single Family homes, Single Family homes won, a Civil RIghts group out of Oakland sued, the courts overturned the vote and it sits, it's a fact, homeowners groups form to "protect" their communities from the poor and the minorities, civil rights groups sue for the poor and minorities. You are right about one thing, as a builder I don't care who lives in my developments, I just want to make my money and go, in fact that's what I have been accused of by protestors, I've been picketed by home owners with signs saying: "Rich Piedmont Developer wants to rape our community and take our money home." In fact one night my wife watched me being hit by picket signs on television, when I got home she said: "I didn't know we were rich, you are holding out on me" That precipitated a massive shopping spree, a builder can't win.
 
I believe the protesters and picketers were absolutely correct

Well the end of that story is that my attorney suggested that I go into the neighborhood on a weekend and talk to the homeowners, try to find out that they wanted, so I did on a sunny Saturday. As luck would have it the man who lived right next to my property was out mowing his lawn, he seemed like a nice old guy, at every meeting, sat in the front row but never said anything. When I asked him what I could do to satisfy them he said: "Look, I'm not a racist, in fact I'm retired military, we were the first to integrate under Truman, we all know you are a good guy and would never deliberately harm our neighborhood, but you will have no choice, state law requires that you rent to %^%$#$@, like it or not you are going to have to rent to them, that's what this is all about, you can't satisfy us with any rental units." With that I threw in the towel and turned the property back to the original owner, so now you know what the protesters and picketers were protesting.
 
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Well the end of that story is that my attorney suggested that I go into the neighborhood on a weekend and talk to the homeowners, try to find out that they wanted, so I did on a sunny Saturday. As luck would have it the man who lived right next to my property was out mowing his lawn, he seemed like a nice old guy, at every meeting, sat in the front row but never said anything. When I asked him what I could do to satisfy them he said: "Look, I'm not a racist, in fact I'm retired military, we were the first to integrate under Truman, we all know you are a good guy and would never deliberately harm our neighborhood, but you will have no choice, state law requires that you rent to ********, like it or not you are going to have to rent to them, that's what this is all about, you can't satisfy us with any rental units." With that I threw in the towel and turned the property back to the original owner, so now you know what the protesters and picketers were protesting.
I don't care if this is just repeating an event that happened 50yrs ago,you are propagating hate speech.
 
I don't care if this is just repeating an event that happened 50yrs ago,you are propagating hate speech.
And what about the building inspectors who red tagged all of the homes in the Urban Renewal districts, I rode with an inspector buddy one day while he did it, the (black) author James Baldwin called it Negro Removal, acres and acres of homes destroyed by building inspectors.
 
This has gone way off topic, what about my question above, if this law goes through and single family zoning is outlawed, when builders tear down single family homes to build small apartments using manufactured homes to get around building codes, what's to stop the inspectors from coming in and demanding fire sprinklers in the exempt new buildings?
 
Are the exempt from meeting code or exempt from inspection?
No, even though the city had designated the property as affordable housing citizens groups sued, the developer came back with a proposal for single family homes and a "dog park", the city council put it on the ballot with two choices, 1) Apartments and 2) Single Family homes, Single Family homes won, a Civil RIghts group out of Oakland sued, the courts overturned the vote and it sits, it's a fact, homeowners groups form to "protect" their communities from the poor and the minorities, civil rights groups sue for the poor and minorities. You are right about one thing, as a builder I don't care who lives in my developments, I just want to make my money and go, in fact that's what I have been accused of by protestors, I've been picketed by home owners with signs saying: "Rich Piedmont Developer wants to rape our community and take our money home." In fact one night my wife watched me being hit by picket signs on television, when I got home she said: "I didn't know we were rich, you are holding out on me" That precipitated a massive shopping spree, a builder can't win.
That is proof of NIMBY. Something we can all attest to. we all hear the "yes you should be allowed to do ... just Not In My Back Yard".

One racist person is not proof that everyone is racist.
 
This has gone way off topic, what about my question above, if this law goes through and single family zoning is outlawed, when builders tear down single family homes to build small apartments using manufactured homes to get around building codes, what's to stop the inspectors from coming in and demanding fire sprinklers in the exempt new buildings?

Are they exempt from complying with the building code or from inspections? Honest question.

Here, they can be exempted from certain inspections on a jurisdictional level. We still complete final inspections after the work is complete.
 
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