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I never, ever saw anything like this before

jar546

jar546

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I was inspecting a kitchen remodel and asked the homeowner if she was going to have a stove-top cut in to the new porcelain counter. I was concerned about receptacle spacing as the oven was below but still counterspace above. She said it is installed and I thought she was joking.

She opened up the wall cabinet and showed me the controller for the stove. Apparently is heats up the pots and pans through the counter. I asked her how she knows where to place the kettle and she said it does not matter, it senses where it is and only heats that area. She then proceeded to show me and the water started to boil. The kettle was hot but the counter was not. I am still amazed and had no idea this existed.

IMG_6594.JPG
 
A cook like my mother could keep this looking good.....a cook like my wife, well not so much. This is a novel idea that will not go far. The surface will abrade from pots and pans. Grease escapes and will cause staining.
 
That's a very cool concept, although I'm betting it's very expensive! As ICE I would worry about abrasion and staining of the stone in the long run.
 
I don't get how the counter cant be hot. Anyway, show me this counter in a couple years. If it gets any normal use it will not be that pretty.
 
alaskajoe said:
I don't get how the counter cant be hot.
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Its induction cooking. Only items with iron get hot. Have you seen the ads for induction cooking that show a frying pan cut in half, beak an egg into the pan and let it spill over ... only the egg in the pan gets cooked. Glass and aluminum pans don't work.
Now ... the heat of the pan might transfer and warm the surface, but only a little.
 
& ~ & ~ &

What U.S. testing organization approved it for use in the U.S. ?
Also, what is the "approved test" for it ?.......Did you check for its
approval rating ?

& ~ & ~ &
 
images


We've been cooking on rocks for years Jar... what's the big deal?
 
Mark K said:
What standard or law would be used to "approve" the cooktop?
Click to expand...

In commercial locations, OSHA requires all appliances to be listed.
In ALL locations, the NEC requires appliances to be listed in 422.

So I come up with one code and one law that answers your question.
 
Because of federal preemption the building department has no authority to enforce OSHA regulations. The OSHA regulations still apply but they are only enforceable by OSHA or by a state agency that has an agreement with OSHA which would exclude local building departments..

422.6 does require appliances to be listed. This appears to be new in the 2017 NEC. Section 100 defines listing but all it says is that the listing must be approved by the building official. There is nothing that states who may do the listing or what standards should be applied when making the determination. Thus how does the applicant know what is required?

The structural standards in the building code are not this sloppy.

A basic assumption of our legal system is that it was possible for an individual who is subject to a law to know what was required in advance. Why does this not apply to building regulations?

Leaving it solely to the building official presents an number of problems. Few if any building officials have defined in advance what standards should be applied or who can do the listing. Probably the majority of building officials would not have the technical knowledge to determine what standards should be used during the listing process. If for example the building official were to only accept a XYZ listing he would have created a local monopoly but the US Supreme Court has determined that only the State Legislature, not a home rule city, can create a legal monopoly

Consider an analogous situation where a police officer determined the speed limit by the roll of the dice. In such a situation I would expect those on this forum to loudly object yet for some reason we are to accept similar behavior by a building official.

It appears that buildings get built because building officials do not enforce the listing requirements and/or accept any listing.
 
I am not aware of any building officials that allow any electrical products that are not listed, even though they have that option. I certainly never have and have not witnessed that happen in the two states I have been licensed in.
 
110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.
100 Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.

110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
(A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated:

1. Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code

Informational Note: Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Special conditions of use or other limitations and other pertinent information may be marked on the equipment, included in the product instructions, or included in the appropriate listing and labeling information. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling.

Few building departments have the wherewithal to evaluate equipment. Therefor widespread reliance on NRTL listing is the order of the day. NRTL stands for Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory. Nationally recognized by whom? Well that is OSHA. OSHA determines which labs have the capacity to evaluate according to which standards. They are not all the same. Not all NRTLs have authority to evaluate to all standards or perform field evaluations.

None of this should be of any concern to an AHJ. The leg work has been done for them. The listing and labeling came first....then the products hit the marketplace.

Of course caution is always a good practice. Now and then a mistake is made. Products have been approved in error. Standards have been found to be less than effective. Procedures followed by NRTLs may be suspect. However, the system we have works well enough to keep it.
 
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As to enforcing OSHA regulations. I am a Californian and California has Cal/OSHA.

From Wikipedia:
The Division of Occupational Safety and Health of California (DOSH, but more commonly known as Cal/OSHA) is an agency of the Government of California established by the California Occupational Safety & Health Act of 1973.[1] Administered by the California Department of Industrial Relations, Cal/OSHA's mission is to protect public health and safety through research and regulation related to hazards on the job in California workplaces as well as on elevators, amusement rides, and ski lifts, and related to the use of pressure vessels such as boilers and tanks. Cal/OSHA requires that qualifying organizations create illness and injury prevention programs meant to help identify and eliminate dangers before accidents and illnesses occur.

As of December 22, 2015, Cal/OSHA employed 195 field enforcement officers, 25 of whom received bilingual pay for using a second language at least 10% of the time on the job. The organization offers training materials and paid training time to staff interested in learning other languages and encourages bilingual applicants to apply.

So Cal/OSHA has 195 field enforcement officers. Gosh DOSH is relying on somebody else to keep us safe. That somebody else must be you and me. My AHJ forced me to attend OSHA training. I have a wallet card to prove that. Field guides are provided. I don't think that happened for no particular reason.

So when I'm in the jungle and I see some scary, damned dangerous thing happening....well then I react as any right thinking adult would. Besides that.....I've been trained.
 
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Tiger:

Don't the contractors down there have lawyers to sue guys like you?

If you want to enforce Federal law do something useful, bust the illegal aliens who are doing all the crummy work at slave wages.
 
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Don't the contractors down there have lawyers to sue guys like you?

No conarb. The illegals have lawyers waiting in line to sue contractors.

Only once have I been threatened with a lawsuit. That was a major plumbing contractor and he said that I defamed him. I told him that I would love to have a court brand him as a thief....so bring it on. I didn't hear from him again.




https://www.constructionjunkie.com/...vives-being-impaled-by-rebar-through-his-head
 
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ICE

I expect that your training was to protect yourself in your job, not to expand your authority to enforce OSHA regulations.

My posting recognized that Cal/OSHA has jurisdiction. Just because you work for a governmental agency does not give you authority to enforce all laws.

I see little to no difference between a building inspector that enforces something that he does not have authority to enforce and a vigilante. If you see a OSHA violation report it to OSHA.
 
Mark K said:
ICE

I expect that your training was to protect yourself in your job, not to expand your authority to enforce OSHA regulations.

My posting recognized that Cal/OSHA has jurisdiction. Just because you work for a governmental agency does not give you authority to enforce all laws.

I see little to no difference between a building inspector that enforces something that he does not have authority to enforce and a vigilante. If you see a OSHA violation report it to OSHA.
Click to expand...

Mark,
I'm okay with all of that except the part about reporting an OSHA violation to OSHA. If I had a mind to do so I would be too busy to inspect the work. I don't bother with mundane danger.....you know....missing saw guards, frayed cords, nails sticking out of boards, homemade ladders, rickety scaffold, etc. No sir, I go after impalement and excavations. Those will kill them....all the other injuries can be fixed.....well not always....but hey... it's not my job now is it.

And here's a bit of eye opening news: Unless an OSHA enforcement officer witnesses the violation....it doesn't exist. Of course a dead worker or severed limbs and digits gets OSHA's attention but by and large the 195 enforcement officers are too busy for the mundane stuff.
 
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So if building officials require listed equipment but do not say what will be accepted as proof of listing this suggests that they either accept any listing from any source or they are imposing a requirement without giving notice to the applicants what is required.

While NRTL certifications could possibly be an option I doubt that building departments make it public notice that they expect NRTL certifications. So how is the applicant to know what is required.

Apparently NRTL certifications are associated with specific standards but it is not clear that they are the same standards as required by the NEC as adopted.

Remember the applicant has a right to be able to know the rules prior to submitting the application. Do we have rule of law or do we have tyrants who attempt to impose their will. Remember the declaration of independence was in response to the rule of tyrants.
 
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