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Doug Fir Lumber

J

jim618326

REGISTERED
Joined
Dec 24, 2020
Messages
6
Location
Connecticut
Hi everyone,
Glad I found this forum. It's been a long time since I've built anything significant. Complete two car detached garage start to finish from hole dig, foundation, to 150 foot concrete driveway in 1982. Major home renovations including cape dormer in 1992. All without nail guns and all the latest cool tools out there. A 12' x 16' shed around 2007 (with nail guns). About to embark on a detached 18' x 30' detached garage. In the meantime, I decided to build a small wood shed. What I have discovered is that is impossible to find green Douglas fir lumber. So I bought kiln dried Doug Fir. I immediately discovered that every time I put a nail (0.113 x 3-1/4") through the end of a 2 x 4, cross grain, it splits it. I did some research and found the green Doug fir comes with a red painted end. Looked through my old project photos and found the lumber with red painted ends. I remember the last hammer blow on the 16p nails, you would see moisture water come out of the wood. Nothing ever split. We never had any issues with the green Doug fir warping or twisting. Loved working with the stuff. Also, the projects had a lot of time to dry before any sheetrock was installed.

So my question is what changed? Did the building code change to require kiln dried lumber? I don't know how anyone works with this stuff. Is it still possible to buy green Doug fir anywhere in Connecticut?

Thanks for the help.
 
Welcome
Happy holidays!

Most people have jumped the Sleigh out of town.

Not sure if code specifies what wood to use, my guess is no.

Do a search “green Douglas fir lumber” Connecticut


Framing Lumber Danbury & South Salem CT - Ridgefield Supply Company

We carry engineered and steel studs as well as steel tracks and furring channels. Let us help you pick the right lumber for your project, contact us today!!
ridgefieldsupply.com ridgefieldsupply.com




Waiting for Santa, to come inspect.
 
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R502.1.1 Sawn lumber. Sawn lumber shall be identified
by a grade mark of an accredited lumber grading or
inspection agency and have design values certified by an
accreditation body that complies with DOC PS 20. In lieu
of a grade mark, a certificate of inspection issued by a
lumber grading or inspection agency meeting the requirements
of this section shall be accepted.

From The American Softwood Lumber Standard:
When the maximum moisture content is specified for lumber of nominal 5-inch or greater thickness, it shall be in accordance with the provisions of the applicable lumber grading rules certified by the Board, which for some species defines dry lumber as having a maximum moisture content higher than 19 percent.[see 6.2.6]
 
Green lumber will shrink, that might be ok for a garage or utility building, but will cause serious problems with finished walls ... sheetrock for example.
 
cda said:
Welcome
Happy holidays!

Most people have jumped the Sleigh out of town.

Not sure if code specifies what wood to use, my guess is no.

Do a search “green Douglas fir lumber” Connecticut


Framing Lumber Danbury & South Salem CT - Ridgefield Supply Company

We carry engineered and steel studs as well as steel tracks and furring channels. Let us help you pick the right lumber for your project, contact us today!!
ridgefieldsupply.com ridgefieldsupply.com




Waiting for Santa, to come inspect.
Click to expand...
Yes I did that. Got no result like you got. Just lumber manufacturers, ads, and Home Depot which coincidently doesn't sell it.
 
You will be better off using dry or kiln dried lumber. The structural codes do not recommend end nailing into wood members. Contractors and engineers prefer dry lumber.

While it may have been the practice of some manufactures of sawn lumber to paint the end of green lumber red this is not required by the standards

The fact that Douglas fir must be shipped from the west coast makes it less likely that any green lumber will be found on the east coast. This is because it costs more to ship green lumber since it weighs more, any green lumber will dry during the shipping process, and many lumber yards find they have greater demand for dry lumber. Green lumber has historically been more of a problem on the west coast since we are close to the source.

The ICC codes do not require kiln dried lumber but the moisture content of the lumber can impact the strength of the lumber connections.
 
Mark K said:
You will be better off using dry or kiln dried lumber. The structural codes do not recommend end nailing into wood members. Contractors and engineers prefer dry lumber.

While it may have been the practice of some manufactures of sawn lumber to paint the end of green lumber red this is not required by the standards

The fact that Douglas fir must be shipped from the west coast makes it less likely that any green lumber will be found on the east coast. This is because it costs more to ship green lumber since it weighs more, any green lumber will dry during the shipping process, and many lumber yards find they have greater demand for dry lumber. Green lumber has historically been more of a problem on the west coast since we are close to the source.

The ICC codes do not require kiln dried lumber but the moisture content of the lumber can impact the strength of the lumber connections.
Click to expand...

Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. When building walls on a house, the ends of 2x4s get nailed in all kinds of directions. End nailing occurs everywhere. Green lumber also holds nails better. The moisture puts just enough surface rust on the nail and then the woods shrinks around the surface rusted nail and holds like you wouldn't get in kiln dried lumber.

I understand that there is no code that requires green wood to be painted red on the end, but that was the defacto "standard" used around here for years. The paint slowed the checking and provided quick identification.

Green wood does weigh more and therefore costs more to ship, however, it costs less to produce, therefore cost is a wash. There is no way a bundle of green 2x4s will dry while being shipped from the west. The trip is short and often the bundles are wrapped. After the bundles sit inside a store or barn, you can see how the exterior pieces on the bundle dry, but it takes a bunch of time for that to happen.

For many years, green Doug fir was THE wood for homebuilding in Connecticut. Something changed somewhere along the way. Perhaps years ago, home building was slower and the wood had more time to dry after it was framed. Now, with the build a house in a week mentality, there isn't time for the wood to dry out. Next week I will go to Forestville lumber and talk to the yard guys. I hope there are some older ones there who know what I am talking about....
 
Jim

You obviously know more than big time developers and the engineers and architects that design wood projects. May you live long enough to understand why they disagree with you and prefer dry lumber.

In California we have CalGreen, building code provisions to promote sustainability objectives, that limits the moisture content of lumber to 16%. In spite of how you feel about California our buildings are not all ready to fall down.
 
Mark K said:
Jim

You obviously know more than big time developers and the engineers and architects that design wood projects. May you live long enough to understand why they disagree with you and prefer dry lumber.

In California we have CalGreen, building code provisions to promote sustainability objectives, that limits the moisture content of lumber to 16%. In spite of how you feel about California our buildings are not all ready to fall down.
Click to expand...
You want green, chop and mill your own and call the result a barn.
 
jim618326 said:
Thanks but I will not use kiln dried wood on my garage unless it is the last thing left on earth. The stuff splits on the ends every time you nail it. When building walls on a house, the ends of 2x4s get nailed in all kinds of directions. End nailing occurs everywhere. Green lumber also holds nails better. The moisture puts just enough surface rust on the nail and then the woods shrinks around the surface rusted nail and holds like you wouldn't get in kiln dried lumber.

I understand that there is no code that requires green wood to be painted red on the end, but that was the defacto "standard" used around here for years. The paint slowed the checking and provided quick identification.

Green wood does weigh more and therefore costs more to ship, however, it costs less to produce, therefore cost is a wash. There is no way a bundle of green 2x4s will dry while being shipped from the west. The trip is short and often the bundles are wrapped. After the bundles sit inside a store or barn, you can see how the exterior pieces on the bundle dry, but it takes a bunch of time for that to happen.

For many years, green Doug fir was THE wood for homebuilding in Connecticut. Something changed somewhere along the way. Perhaps years ago, home building was slower and the wood had more time to dry after it was framed. Now, with the build a house in a week mentality, there isn't time for the wood to dry out. Next week I will go to Forestville lumber and talk to the yard guys. I hope there are some older ones there who know what I am talking about....
Click to expand...
There is code that limits the moisture content of wood in living spaces. If you are building it for yourself, it is a different story. Doug fir and spruce pine fir are the main framing species in CT. Check with Rings End or another lumber Yard depending on your location in CT. Bang the head of the nail with your hammer to flatten the point, it will help with splitting.
 
instantmessenger said:
There is code that limits the moisture content of wood in living spaces. If you are building it for yourself, it is a different story. Doug fir and spruce pine fir are the main framing species in CT. Check with Rings End or another lumber Yard depending on your location in CT. Bang the head of the nail with your hammer to flatten the point, it will help with splitting.
Click to expand...
Rings End has all kinds of green Doug fir lumber. Thank you for the help!!!
 
I am surprised that the engineer here didn't suggest that you soak the kiln dried lumber. I used to pull logs from a lake. They were cut down twelve years earlier and dry as a bleached cow bone when I put then in the lake. Water ran out of the logs all the way to town. They cut like butter.
 
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jim618326 said:
Hi everyone,
Glad I found this forum. It's been a long time since I've built anything significant. Complete two car detached garage start to finish from hole dig, foundation, to 150 foot concrete driveway in 1982. Major home renovations including cape dormer in 1992. All without nail guns and all the latest cool tools out there. A 12' x 16' shed around 2007 (with nail guns). About to embark on a detached 18' x 30' detached garage. In the meantime, I decided to build a small wood shed. What I have discovered is that is impossible to find green Douglas fir lumber. So I bought kiln dried Doug Fir. I immediately discovered that every time I put a nail (0.113 x 3-1/4") through the end of a 2 x 4, cross grain, it splits it. I did some research and found the green Doug fir comes with a red painted end. Looked through my old project photos and found the lumber with red painted ends. I remember the last hammer blow on the 16p nails, you would see moisture water come out of the wood. Nothing ever split. We never had any issues with the green Doug fir warping or twisting. Loved working with the stuff. Also, the projects had a lot of time to dry before any sheetrock was installed.

So my question is what changed? Did the building code change to require kiln dried lumber? I don't know how anyone works with this stuff. Is it still possible to buy green Doug fir anywhere in Connecticut?

Thanks for the help.
Click to expand...

Get perfectly straight strong framing members us LSLs or PSL’s pay more but less then setting up your own mill.

TimberStrand® LSL Wall Framing & Studs

Picks up framing where the code stops
www.weyerhaeuser.com www.weyerhaeuser.com

If you want an insulated garage use SIPs then you’re cutting out the studs all together!

or go with metal studs, always straight, no nail gun needed and it will be fun to show your friends.

Good luck
 
always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.
ADAguy said:
always someone who wants it "his" way.
Click to expand...
always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.
 
jim618326 said:
always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.

always a forum troll who defines success by how may rude comments he can make or how many people he can ridicule. Pat yourself on the back, you've had a successful day.
Click to expand...

I believe that there is a level of frustration because you are in a building code forum that is driven by international codes and state codes, all which require kiln dried lumber and you are going against the codes which are developed by the wood manufacturers, engineers and architects. If you choose to work outside the prescriptive code requirements then you will need to hire an engineer. Don't plan on passing any code inspections id you want to use green/wet lumber. If you are not working under a permit that is governed by codes then you are in the wrong place. You may think that your property is your castle but in the future someone unsuspecting may own it and deal with the problems that you caused.
 
When I worked the residential home building job, we would ask for D-Fir because of the floor spans and we paid additional $$ for D-Fir. We switched yards because the second house they delivered was changed to KD Hem-Fir (Lighter material) they didn't think we would notice. I checked the spans and was on the phone to the yard, "What's this crap?, They said they we're are out of D-Fir. We couldn't use Hem-Fir unless we change or OC layouts which would have cost us additional material! and $$".

The Green D-Fir would sometimes come to us with different widths, small worm holes and usually black mold all over it, our framers looked like coal miners at the end of the day.

Recently here a builder had a home owner back out of a house build because the lady noticed that the KD-Fir floor joist had mold spots on them. The builder sprayed a bleach solution on the FJ's and she still backed out. I wonder if you can even sell a house these days with mold on the joist?

Studs: Personally I hated D-Fir studs, preferred the S-P-F studs, but some of my framers wanted them.

Good luck.
 
Knowing "why" is half the issue, safety another. The intent of code minimums is to protect you from yourself and other future buyers.
 
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