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Party wall

cda said:
So what is the setting?

What is the wall there for?
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Apartment complex one owner with different three floors units each joined by party wall but over one cluster. The party wall has conduit and wiring going to each dwelling unit within each units existing from electrical room from within one of the units. NEC allows this provided they have proper fire rated penetration means on the adjacent walls. (NEC ref: 300.21). Their is No mention of party wall and that cannot have no opening in NEC except in IBC. Building code issue not NEC issue.
 
Apurva Dave said:
Apartment complex one owner with different three floors units each joined by party wall but over one cluster. The party wall has conduit and wiring going to each dwelling unit within each units existing from electrical room from within one of the units. NEC allows this provided they have proper fire rated penetration means on the adjacent walls. (NEC ref: 300.21). Their is No mention of party wall and that cannot have no opening in NEC except in IBC. Building code issue not NEC issue.
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What you have described does not sound like a party wall at all--it is a dwelling unit separation wall, which is required to be a fire partition. The rating is required to be 1 hour but is allowed to be reduced to 30 minutes if the construction type complies with Type IIB, IIIB, or VB. Penetrations in a fire partition are required to comply with IBC Section 714.
 
RLGA said:
What you have described does not sound like a party wall at all--it is a dwelling unit separation wall, which is required to be a fire partition. The rating is required to be 1 hour but is allowed to be reduced to 30 minutes if the construction type complies with Type IIB, IIIB, or VB. Penetrations in a fire partition are required to comply with IBC Section 714.
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Confirmed like three times with the engineer says it’s party wall but all this is existing
 
RLGA said:
What you have described does not sound like a party wall at all--it is a dwelling unit separation wall, which is required to be a fire partition. The rating is required to be 1 hour but is allowed to be reduced to 30 minutes if the construction type complies with Type IIB, IIIB, or VB. Penetrations in a fire partition are required to comply with IBC Section 714.
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I don’t think you understand. Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units. Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks. Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.
 
Apurva Dave said:
I don’t think you understand. Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units. Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks. Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.
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Bldgs #1 to #6 is one join cluster apartment complex
 
Apurva Dave said:
I don’t think you understand. Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units. Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks. Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.
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Unless each "building" is situated on a separate lot, then it is not a party wall. If each "building" was divided to stay within allowable height and area requirements, then it is a fire wall. Or, if each "building" is separated for design reasons (e.g., access to a single exit), then they are not really separate buildings, and the walls can be treated as fire partitions. Just because the owner may have labeled each section as a "building," does not necessarily make them separate buildings per the building code.

I guess we need to know a little more about how the "buildings" are configured beyond just being "joined," such as the floor area per story, wall construction for these walls that separate each "building" from the others, etc.
 
Apurva Dave said:
I don’t think you understand. Let’s say I have bldg #1,#2,#3,#4,#5#6 same owner.
Bldgs #1 to #6 are joined together each with party wall.
Each bldg is three floors and attic with dwelling units. Bldg #3 has electrical room and meter stacks. Feeders from meter stack go up attic bldg #3 and then penetrate the party wall and go to bldg#1,2,4,5,6 to individual dewelling unit panelboard.
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So about what year were these built?

Are these more condos, than apartments? Or originally condos?
 
FIRE BARRIER. A fire-resistance-rated wall assembly of materials designed to restrict the spread of fire in which continuity is maintained.

FIRE WALL. A fire-resistance-rated wall having protected openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extends continuously from the foundation to or through the roof, with sufficient structural stability under fire conditions to allow collapse of construction on either side without collapse of the wall.
 
Apurva Dave said:
Engineer says it goes from foundation all the way up to roof between each bldg. would that make it fire partition?
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Besides deciding what to call the wall,,,,

What is the real question???



Plus, what year were the buildings built??
 
Apurva Dave said:
Engineer says it goes from foundation all the way up to roof between each bldg. would that make it fire partition?
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It could. Again, it depends on the purpose of the wall. Fire walls make big buildings into smaller buildings to stay within the allowable height and area for a given construction type. If the aggregate area of all "buildings" is within the allowable area for the construction type, then the walls need only be fire partitions.

When were the buildings built? What type of work is being performed? What is the construction of those walls?
 
Primary and ultimate purpose here is to know each building is separate bldgs or not. NEC allows only one service to each bldgs and no exception applies.

NEC defines bldg as:

Building. A structure that stands alone or that is cut off from adjoining structures by fire walls with all openings therein protected by approved fire doors.

Do the walls fit the NEC building definition to be separate buildings?
 
Apurva Dave said:
Primary and ultimate purpose here is to know each building is separate bldgs or not. NEC allows only one service to each bldgs and no exception applies.

NEC defines bldg as:

Building. A structure that stands alone or that is cut off from adjoining structures by fire walls with all openings therein protected by approved fire doors.

Do the walls fit the NEC building definition to be separate buildings?
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To answer your question: we don't have enough information.

However, the NEC does not require each building to have one service--it requires a "building or other structure" to be supplied by only one service. It is limiting the number and not establishing a minimum. The 2018 IBC added language in Section 503.1 that the use of fire walls are solely for the purpose of determining height, area, and construction type for each portion of a building. Thus, it is not intended that fire walls actually create separate and distinct buildings if used for those purposes.

In a connected building using fire walls, firefighters do not want to go to each separate electrical service to shut off the power--they want one location and one location only as much as possible (hence, the NEC requirement to limit the number of electrical services to one).

Now, an electrical plans examiner or inspector may interpret the NEC requirement to mean each building separated by a fire wall is required to have a separate service, but if they took that to the fire plans examiner, I bet the fire plans examiner would ask for only one service. When the fire department rolls up to a building fire, they will see one building--it will not be evident to the firefighters that it is multiple "buildings." When they find one service, they shut it off, and may now think they shut off the entire building when in fact they only shut off a portion of the building--this could be a dangerous situation.
 
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Ok,

Still may go to when the building was built.

Not my area, trying to remember if when I have seen a fire wall in an apartment, if each side had its own service???

I am thinking maybe depending on the building, with a true firewall, have seen one service for the entire building.
 
One has to look from NEC perspective since NEC says each building supply with one service and definition of building as stated earlier in NEC.

so if there are firewalls each buildings then by NEC each building is separate buildings allows each building with service. Only NEC is involved here
 
Apurva Dave said:
One has to look from NEC perspective since NEC says each building supply with one service and definition of building as stated earlier in NEC.

so if there are firewalls each buildings then by NEC each building is separate buildings allows each building with service. Only NEC is involved here
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So I guess the question is

You are looking at an existing building.

With I take one service.

So if the answer is you have two buildings

What happens from there????

Split the services ???

Or ???
 
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