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Fill the blocks or not to fill the blocks

atvjoel

Registered User
Joined
Aug 1, 2021
Messages
124
Location
Alaska
I have single story, single family residence and went way bigger on my stem wall on footing. 10"x24" footing 3 runs of rebar. 8" stem wal with a lot of rebar. Its almost 7' high stem wall.

I have center 30x30" footings that I wouldnt relaly consider load bearing (just holds up the beam/girder. My plans did not call to verticle rebar and my inspector was ok with it. My plans also called to one 8"x8"x16" block and didnt specify it needed to be filled. It would not have worked because my crawl space is big so I went two 8"x8"x16 blocks for 16"x16" for my girder to rest on.

Is this normal to not fill these piers or whatever you call them? I told my father in law they dont need to be filled and he is from the Philippines and was second guessing me, but the plans didnt specify. have trusses, it will only be supporting the floor. I am in seismic zone but I went way above and beyond with by footing and stem wall and they are only holding up the floor.

Perhaps I can just put a couple vertical rebar in them and fill them as good as possible. The girder justs rests on them and there is no cross section on the plans for how they are attached to the block piers.

Any help appreciated. I dont want to have him rebuild them, so maybe I can just dump some concrete in them and acouple rebar and call it good, even though the vertical rebar wont be in the footing.
 
I think you need an engineer. Who produced your plans? What is you basis for saying that you have a lot of rebar? Depending on the facts what you think of as a lot of rebar may be inadequate. Did the building department have an engineer review your drawings?

If you put reinforcement in concrete block and do not grout the cells you are wasting your money and you will not get the benefit of the reinforcement.

A 7 foot high stem wall definitely needs vertical rebar. Why is it 7 feet high? Is it a retaining wall?
 
I have single story, single family residence and went way bigger on my stem wall on footing. 10"x24" footing 3 runs of rebar. 8" stem wal with a lot of rebar. Its almost 7' high stem wall.

I have center 30x30" footings that I wouldnt relaly consider load bearing (just holds up the beam/girder. My plans did not call to verticle rebar and my inspector was ok with it. My plans also called to one 8"x8"x16" block and didnt specify it needed to be filled. It would not have worked because my crawl space is big so I went two 8"x8"x16 blocks for 16"x16" for my girder to rest on.

Is this normal to not fill these piers or whatever you call them? I told my father in law they dont need to be filled and he is from the Philippines and was second guessing me, but the plans didnt specify. have trusses, it will only be supporting the floor. I am in seismic zone but I went way above and beyond with by footing and stem wall and they are only holding up the floor.

Perhaps I can just put a couple vertical rebar in them and fill them as good as possible. The girder justs rests on them and there is no cross section on the plans for how they are attached to the block piers.

Any help appreciated. I dont want to have him rebuild them, so maybe I can just dump some concrete in them and acouple rebar and call it good, even though the vertical rebar wont be in the footing.
You are in over your head. There are so many red flags in your post. At this point, if you don't have any code requirements, just do whatever you want and either you or the next owner will live with the consequences. "...I wouldn't really consider load bearing (just holds up the beam/girder." This statement in itself makes me question whether or not you are just here to troll.
 
You are in over your head. There are so many red flags in your post. At this point, if you don't have any code requirements, just do whatever you want and either you or the next owner will live with the consequences. "...I wouldn't really consider load bearing (just holds up the beam/girder." This statement in itself makes me question whether or not you are just here to troll.
So smuggy I cant believe it. "in over your head." Its not rocket science I am above code all around, I couldnt find the code requirements on these piers. Its guys like you that go over to their neighbor and make them feel like crap because they dont want a mortgage and trying to build a home for their family, scratching their chin. They are simple little block piers to hold up the floor on a skinny ranch style home good grief. Its not load bearing as in just that, its not bearing snow load, its holding up furniture, fixtures, etc. My engineered trusses bear all the weight.
 
I think you need an engineer. Who produced your plans? What is you basis for saying that you have a lot of rebar? Depending on the facts what you think of as a lot of rebar may be inadequate. Did the building department have an engineer review your drawings?

If you put reinforcement in concrete block and do not grout the cells you are wasting your money and you will not get the benefit of the reinforcement.

A 7 foot high stem wall definitely needs vertical rebar. Why is it 7 feet high? Is it a retaining wall?
This question was not in relation to the stem wall, it was about the 30x30 footings with blocks on them to hold up the floor (not load bearing i.e snow load etc, its only bearing weight of the floor, furniture, fixtures, etc)

The question was about code on filling the blocks. Its not a stem wall, there is 6 small interior 30"x30" block footings that call to cinder blocks.

I talked to him and he only started on one so its not too late, we are just going to fill them.

Engineer review is not required in my area. We are on international building code.

My stem wall was built above code. I had two runs rebar on bottom, two in the middle, and two at the top, about double what code requires.
 
I think you need an engineer. Who produced your plans? What is you basis for saying that you have a lot of rebar? Depending on the facts what you think of as a lot of rebar may be inadequate. Did the building department have an engineer review your drawings?

If you put reinforcement in concrete block and do not grout the cells you are wasting your money and you will not get the benefit of the reinforcement.

A 7 foot high stem wall definitely needs vertical rebar. Why is it 7 feet high? Is it a retaining wall
You are in over your head. There are so many red flags in your post. At this point, if you don't have any code requirements, just do whatever you want and either you or the next owner will live with the consequences. "...I wouldn't really consider load bearing (just holds up the beam/girder." This statement in itself makes me question whether or not you are just here to troll.
I wasnto clear. Vertical rebar wa in relation to the 30x30 small little footings that hold up the floor. Obviously I had a ton of #4 vertical rebar in my stem wall minimum 48" o.c
 
I am inclined to shut this thread down and lock it. I see no code value as there are generic, basic statements without details and I am not sure what the original poster is looking for. Thoughts from others?
 
I don't think the question here is about 'load-bearing' but rather 'code compliance'...I always laugh when builders tell me they just 'over-built' something...ok, but does it meet code?

usually not....

so many 'war stories' on this subject I think the OP and his project are a great example of this...I particularly enjoyed the discussion on hand-building trusses from the mfg.'s shop drawings
 
So often on the AHJ side of the counter we get questions of this nature. People want a simple answer to a complex question and get frustrated when they don't get the answer they want. People may ask "what size footing do I need." Well it depends on what you're building, soil conditions, etc... People want to build a "pergola" and ask "can I use a strong-tie" and the answer is "maybe, depends on your design." They get frustrated because we tell them we need a set of plans, and they ask what needs to be on the plans, we need your design on the plans, well what design do you want to see. It's a complicated code world and the code doesn't have one-size-fits-all solutions. It's never about "what we want," it's about what code allows. Every part of the picture plays a role, planners, designers, architects, engineers, inspectors, builders, it all matters and no one part is superfluous. People want to build their dream home, I get it, I want to also. But without all of the pieces in place you're missing the whole picture. All they see is people wanting to take their money, and they don't see the value they are getting. While I understand the frustration when a question is posed like this (because I get them all the time and it's draining) I also try to respect and understand the perspective of people asking the question. To this poster and others who have posed similar questions please don't take short/concise answers as personal attacks. There was one recently where somebody wanted an answer and they didn't get what they wanted, and they took it personally. "Hire a contractor" or "ask an Engineer" really is a valid answer on a forum like this. It's not a personal attack, it's not meant to diminish you as "just another DIY'er." This community provides a valuable resource of code interpretation and if you have specific codes to discuss then there will be valuable discord. If you ask a blanket general question, you're probably going to get little out of this forum.
 
Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

or replied to a form thread that was deleted?
 
I have center 30x30" footings that I wouldnt relaly consider load bearing (just holds up the beam/girder.
I went two 8"x8"x16 blocks for 16"x16" for my girder to rest on.


The code does address what you are doing and it is load bearing. Since you stated your crawl space wall is 7 ft tall I would question the height of your column. As you can see in the codes below a solid grouted masonry pier will allow you to be much taller than an un-grouted pier and I think from your post grouting the piers will be required. Personally I would grout all the masonry in a high seismic zone.

R403.1.3.6 Isolated concrete footings.
In detached one- and two-family dwellings that are three stories or less in height and constructed with stud bearing walls, isolated plain concrete footings supporting columns or pedestals are permitted.

R404.1.9 Isolated masonry piers.
Isolated masonry piers shall be constructed in accordance with this section and the general masonry construction requirements of Section R606. Hollow masonry piers shall have a minimum nominal thickness of 8 inches (203 mm), with a nominal height not exceeding four times the nominal thickness and a nominal length not exceeding three times the nominal thickness. Where hollow masonry units are solidly filled with concrete or grout, piers shall be permitted to have a nominal height not exceeding ten times the nominal thickness. Footings for isolated masonry piers shall be sized in accordance with Section R403.1.1.

R404.1.9.2 Masonry piers supporting floor girders.
Masonry piers supporting wood girders sized in accordance with Tables R602.7(1) and R602.7(2) shall be permitted in accordance with this section. Piers supporting girders for interior bearing walls shall have a minimum nominal dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) and a maximum height of 10 feet (3048 mm) from top of footing to bottom of sill plate or girder. Piers supporting girders for exterior bearing walls shall have a minimum nominal dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) and a maximum height of 4 feet (1220 mm) from top of footing to bottom of sill plate or girder. Girders and sill plates shall be anchored to the pier or footing in accordance with Section R403.1.6 or Figure R404.1.5(1). Floor girder bearing shall be in accordance with Section R502.6
 
Well then, now you can't delete the thread.
Thanks for giving my comment so much weight, but I have no jurisdiction here. I'm only a "Registered User" but I figured I'd share my two cents.
Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

or replied to a form thread that was deleted?
I'm not sure if you were addressing me, but no I've never been in any prison... Although sometimes this job starts to feel like one. Replying to a deleted thread? Maybe that's why I never got an answer....
 
Thanks for giving my comment so much weight, but I have no jurisdiction here. I'm only a "Registered User" but I figured I'd share my two cents.

I'm not sure if you were addressing me, but no I've never been in any prison... Although sometimes this job starts to feel like one. Replying to a deleted thread? Maybe that's why I never got an answer....
Your initial response was well thought out and appreciated.
 
Your initial response was well thought out and appreciated.
Thanks. I wish I had indicated in my response to ICE that I was being snarky and sarcastic, I forget that inflection is often lost in text only communication.
 
I don't think the question here is about 'load-bearing' but rather 'code compliance'...I always laugh when builders tell me they just 'over-built' something...ok, but does it meet code?

usually not....

so many 'war stories' on this subject I think the OP and his project are a great example of this...I particularly enjoyed the discussion on hand-building trusses from the mfg.'s shop drawings
Precisely! Code compliance. I already know its not bearing much weight. i am not sticking a hot tub in the living room.
 
A Philippineo in Alaska? Where in Alaska doesn't it snow? Snow equals dead Weight, no?
Its a pier that simply holds up the floor. My stem wall and footings bear all the weight. mtlog cabin post was of value
 
The code does address what you are doing and it is load bearing. Since you stated your crawl space wall is 7 ft tall I would question the height of your column. As you can see in the codes below a solid grouted masonry pier will allow you to be much taller than an un-grouted pier and I think from your post grouting the piers will be required. Personally I would grout all the masonry in a high seismic zone.

R403.1.3.6 Isolated concrete footings.
In detached one- and two-family dwellings that are three stories or less in height and constructed with stud bearing walls, isolated plain concrete footings supporting columns or pedestals are permitted.

R404.1.9 Isolated masonry piers.
Isolated masonry piers shall be constructed in accordance with this section and the general masonry construction requirements of Section R606. Hollow masonry piers shall have a minimum nominal thickness of 8 inches (203 mm), with a nominal height not exceeding four times the nominal thickness and a nominal length not exceeding three times the nominal thickness. Where hollow masonry units are solidly filled with concrete or grout, piers shall be permitted to have a nominal height not exceeding ten times the nominal thickness. Footings for isolated masonry piers shall be sized in accordance with Section R403.1.1.

R404.1.9.2 Masonry piers supporting floor girders.
Masonry piers supporting wood girders sized in accordance with Tables R602.7(1) and R602.7(2) shall be permitted in accordance with this section. Piers supporting girders for interior bearing walls shall have a minimum nominal dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) and a maximum height of 10 feet (3048 mm) from top of footing to bottom of sill plate or girder. Piers supporting girders for exterior bearing walls shall have a minimum nominal dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) and a maximum height of 4 feet (1220 mm) from top of footing to bottom of sill plate or girder. Girders and sill plates shall be anchored to the pier or footing in accordance with Section R403.1.6 or Figure R404.1.5(1). Floor girder bearing shall be in accordance with Section R502.6
Thank you sir this is very helpful and what I was looking for. Much appreciated
 
The code does address what you are doing and it is load bearing. Since you stated your crawl space wall is 7 ft tall I would question the height of your column. As you can see in the codes below a solid grouted masonry pier will allow you to be much taller than an un-grouted pier and I think from your post grouting the piers will be required. Personally I would grout all the masonry in a high seismic zone.

R403.1.3.6 Isolated concrete footings.
In detached one- and two-family dwellings that are three stories or less in height and constructed with stud bearing walls, isolated plain concrete footings supporting columns or pedestals are permitted.

R404.1.9 Isolated masonry piers.
Isolated masonry piers shall be constructed in accordance with this section and the general masonry construction requirements of Section R606. Hollow masonry piers shall have a minimum nominal thickness of 8 inches (203 mm), with a nominal height not exceeding four times the nominal thickness and a nominal length not exceeding three times the nominal thickness. Where hollow masonry units are solidly filled with concrete or grout, piers shall be permitted to have a nominal height not exceeding ten times the nominal thickness. Footings for isolated masonry piers shall be sized in accordance with Section R403.1.1.

R404.1.9.2 Masonry piers supporting floor girders.
Masonry piers supporting wood girders sized in accordance with Tables R602.7(1) and R602.7(2) shall be permitted in accordance with this section. Piers supporting girders for interior bearing walls shall have a minimum nominal dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) and a maximum height of 10 feet (3048 mm) from top of footing to bottom of sill plate or girder. Piers supporting girders for exterior bearing walls shall have a minimum nominal dimension of 12 inches (305 mm) and a maximum height of 4 feet (1220 mm) from top of footing to bottom of sill plate or girder. Girders and sill plates shall be anchored to the pier or footing in accordance with Section R403.1.6 or Figure R404.1.5(1). Floor girder bearing shall be in accordance with Section R502.6
R404.1.9.2 That really helped.
 
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