Question on Cleanouts for 115 ft. run of 4 inch Schedule 40 connecting to sewer main.

[hardroadz]

Hi,

I have 3 questions regarding cleanouts required for a 115ft run of 4inch which will y connect into sewer main in front of house.

1.) The run has to make 2 90 degree turns, one about 20ft from the beginning of the run and one about 10 ft from the end of the downhill run where it y connects into sewer. My understanding of section 708.3.3, is that I can eliminate the requirement of a cleanout at the turn point if I instead use 2 45's and separate them with a straight piece, thus eliminating any turn greater than 45 degrees:

IPC - 708.3.3 Changes of direction.
Cleanouts shall be installed at each change of direction greater than 45 degrees (0.79 rad) in the building sewer, building drain and horizontal waste or soil lines. Where more than one change of direction occurs in a run of piping, only one cleanout shall be required for each 40 feet (12 192 mm) of developed length of the drainage piping.


2.) The horizontal Y where I tie into the main sewer line will be just downstream of a cleanout in front of my house. My interpretation of 708.3.5 is that I will not need a cleanout at the junction since a cleanout is already there within 10ft:

IPC - 708.3.5 Building drain and building sewer junction.
There shall be a cleanout near the junction of the building drain and the building sewer. The cleanout shall be either inside or outside the building wall and shall be brought up to the finished ground level or to the basement floor level. An approved two-way cleanout is allowed to be used at this location to serve as a required cleanout for both the building drain and building sewer. The cleanout at the junction of the building drain and building sewer shall not be required if the cleanout on a 3-inch (76 mm) or larger diameter soil stack is located within a developed length of 10 feet (3048 mm) of the building drain and building sewer connection. The minimum size of the cleanout at the junction of the building drain and building sewer shall comply with Section 708.7.
IPC - 708.3.4 Base of stack.

3.) Final question: Cleanouts should always be located above upstream from the junction points, correct?


Closing Note: My aim is to use one 4" cleanout for the entire one (in addition to a 2" cleanout at the fixture which joins to the the 4" line.)


Appreciate any knowledge on this subject in advance.

 

[Joe.B]

California Plumbing Code 2019 based on the UPC 2018

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

https://epubs.iapmo.org/2019/CPC/index.html

California does not use the IPC. The CA Plumbing Code is based off of the Uniform Plumbing Code and has some significant differences from the IPC. For example:

706.3 Horizontal to Horizontal

Horizontal drainage lines connecting with other horizontal drainage lines shall enter through 45 degree (0.79 rad) wye branches, combination wye and one-eighth bend branches, or other approved fittings of equivalent sweep.

Under CA plumbing code you can't use a standard 90 in horizontal grade.

For Cleanouts:

707.4 Location

Each horizontal drainage pipe shall be provided with a cleanout at its upper terminal, and each run of piping, that is more than 100 feet (30 480 mm) in total developed length, shall be provided with a cleanout for each 100 feet (30 480 mm), or fraction thereof, in length of such piping. An additional cleanout shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change in direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad). A cleanout shall be installed above the fixture connection fitting, serving each urinal, regardless of the location of the urinal in the building.

Exceptions:
1. Cleanouts shall be permitted to be omitted on a horizontal drain line less than 5 feet (1524 mm) in length unless such line is serving sinks or urinals.
2. Cleanouts shall be permitted to be omitted on a horizontal drainage pipe installed on a slope of 72 degrees (1.26 rad) or less from the vertical angle (one-fifth bend).
3. Excepting the building drain, its horizontal branches, and urinals, a cleanout shall not be required on a pipe or piping that is above the floor level of the lowest floor of the building.
4. An approved type of two-way cleanout fitting, installed inside the building wall near the connection between the building drain and the building sewer or installed outside of a building at the lower end of a building drain and extended to grade, shall be permitted to be substituted for an upper terminal cleanout.

 

[hardroadz]

Hi Joe,

I appreciate your response. I am connecting to the main sewer line with a Wye with 45 attached. No 90's or Sanitary or Long Sweep will be used.

Again, for my turns, I am not proposing using any 90 degree elbows, but rather 2 45's separated by a straight piece. My first question was whether this negates the need for a cleanout to be right above this turn. Technically, there is no one turn greater than 45 degrees in this configuration.

The second question was whether I need a cleanout where it connects to sewer. I don't think I need one as there is a cleanout just upstream of where this junction will be, but wanted to confirm.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

2 45's equal 90 degrees. So if you have 2 or more 45's it is more then a 45 degree change in direction even if there are straight sections in between them.

 

[hardroadz]

2 45's equal 90 degrees. So if you have 2 or more 45's it is more then a 45 degree change in direction even if there are straight sections in between them.

Thanks for the response. Can you site the code section on that states that?

 

[Joe.B]

For Cleanouts:

707.4 Location

Each horizontal drainage pipe shall be provided with a cleanout at its upper terminal, and each run of piping, that is more than 100 feet (30 480 mm) in total developed length, shall be provided with a cleanout for each 100 feet (30 480 mm), or fraction thereof, in length of such piping. An additional cleanout shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change in direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad). A cleanout shall be installed above the fixture connection fitting, serving each urinal, regardless of the location of the urinal in the building.

Exceptions:
1. Cleanouts shall be permitted to be omitted on a horizontal drain line less than 5 feet (1524 mm) in length unless such line is serving sinks or urinals.
2. Cleanouts shall be permitted to be omitted on a horizontal drainage pipe installed on a slope of 72 degrees (1.26 rad) or less from the vertical angle (one-fifth bend).
3. Excepting the building drain, its horizontal branches, and urinals, a cleanout shall not be required on a pipe or piping that is above the floor level of the lowest floor of the building.
4. An approved type of two-way cleanout fitting, installed inside the building wall near the connection between the building drain and the building sewer or installed outside of a building at the lower end of a building drain and extended to grade, shall be permitted to be substituted for an upper terminal cleanout.

 

[Joe.B]

Hi Joe,

I appreciate your response. I am connecting to the main sewer line with a Wye with 45 attached. No 90's or Sanitary or Long Sweep will be used.

Again, for my turns, I am not proposing using any 90 degree elbows, but rather 2 45's separated by a straight piece. My first question was whether this negates the need for a cleanout to be right above this turn. Technically, there is no one turn greater than 45 degrees in this configuration.

The second question was whether I need a cleanout where it connects to sewer. I don't think I need one as there is a cleanout just upstream of where this junction will be, but wanted to confirm.

CA says (as posted above) that you need a clean out for every 100 feet or portion there of, and anytime you exceed a total of 135 degrees in turns. There are also other requirements relating to the building. If you use either of the links I provided you can read the exact current CA code requirements for yourself.

 

[e hilton]

Is this going to be another of your threads that goes on forever because you believe something your father said as opposed to written code? Do you have a licensed plumber tying into the city line?

 

[ICE]

Thanks for the response. Can you site the code section on that states that?

That’s a math question. Three left turns equals a right turn. The space between the turns is irrelevant.

 

[hardroadz]

Is this going to be another of your threads that goes on forever because you believe something your father said as opposed to written code? Do you have a licensed plumber tying into the city line?

--My father, although not performing the work, happens to own a Pump business in Placer County and is a licensed plumber.
--The worker doing plumbing line is a licensed plumber.

 

[ICE]

--My father, although not performing the work, happens to own a Pump business in Placer County and is a licensed plumber.
--The worker doing plumbing line is a licensed plumber.

With that high grade professional help why are you asking questions here? Do you have trust issues?

 

[hardroadz]

With that high grade professional help why are you asking questions here? Do you have trust issues?

I just wanted to see if there may of been something I may have missed and to get any insight. My understanding was that this was a Building Code forum.

 

[ICE]

My understanding was that this was a Building Code forum

Well it’s more of a plan checker’s forum but the occasional code question does come up. Having observed your interaction here I get the feeling that you could teach us a thing or two. Welcome to the forum and keep up the great contribution.

 

[e hilton]

. Three left turns equals a right turn. The space between the turns is irrelevant

Considering who we’re dealing with, don’t give him any chance to misinterpret the developed length.

 

[hardroadz]

Considering who we’re dealing with, don’t give him any chance to misinterpret the developed length.

With that high grade professional help why are you asking questions here? Do you have trust issues?

My dad is tied up right now as my uncle passed away yesterday. If you could try to give your insight on the following question, I would be grateful:

My new 4" line will tie into the main line drain at the front of the house in a wye junction. Just 1' upstream from the y connection is a pre-existing cleanout for the main sewer line. Is that going to be sufficient, or do I need to install another cleanout downstream of the wye. If the latter is the case I may be able to tie in the wye slightly upstream of the cleanout.

Thanks again, and it was never my intention to get testy.~Robert

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Usually the utility has it's own rules which would supersede the code.

 

[Sifu]

2018 IPC commentary...may not help in CA but it does address one of the questions

A frequent question is whether two eighthbend
pattern fittings can be connected by a short
length of pipe and not be considered duplicating a single-
pattern fitting (and not requiring a cleanout for that
change in direction). One example would be making a
90-degree (1.57 rad) change in direction using two
eighth-bend fittings (hubs on both ends) connected by
a “makeup” length of pipe (such that the hub end of
each fitting touches the other). The code allows 45-
degree (0.79 rad) changes in direction and does not
state how far apart those changes are required to be.
The logical conclusion is that the length of pipe
between the two fittings could be minimal and the
made-up fitting still be in compliance such that a cleanout
would not be required. This might not necessarily
be the same conclusion arrived at by the local code
official.

 

[Joe.B]

The title of your thread is 115 feet of pipe. According to CA plumbing code you will need at least two cleanouts, and good design would be three or more. Depending on how the house is plumbed you should already have either a back of run cleanout and/or a two-way within two feet of where the line leaves the house. From the last clean out you can't go more than 100 feet (or more that 135 degrees of turns) without another cleanout. Some local jurisdictions require an additional cleanout at the transition from private property to public ROW.

If it were me I would want a clean out at the house, and again at the 20 foot mark where your double 45 would go, and again where you connect to the other lines. That would be minimum for me, but I might even consider another at the other double 45.

"Each horizontal drainage pipe shall be provided with a cleanout at its upper terminal, and each run of piping, that is more than 100 feet (30 480 mm) in total developed length, shall be provided with a cleanout for each 100 feet (30 480 mm), or fraction thereof, in length of such piping. An additional cleanout shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change in direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad)."

 

[hardroadz]

The title of your thread is 115 feet of pipe. According to CA plumbing code you will need at least two cleanouts, and good design would be three or more. Depending on how the house is plumbed you should already have either a back of run cleanout and/or a two-way within two feet of where the line leaves the house. From the last clean out you can't go more than 100 feet (or more that 135 degrees of turns) without another cleanout. Some local jurisdictions require an additional cleanout at the transition from private property to public ROW.

If it were me I would want a clean out at the house, and again at the 20 foot mark where your double 45 would go, and again where you connect to the other lines. That would be minimum for me, but I might even consider another at the other double 45.

"Each horizontal drainage pipe shall be provided with a cleanout at its upper terminal, and each run of piping, that is more than 100 feet (30 480 mm) in total developed length, shall be provided with a cleanout for each 100 feet (30 480 mm), or fraction thereof, in length of such piping. An additional cleanout shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change in direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad)."

Joe,

Thank you! Your response is very helpful.

What I have is an outdoor shower at the start of the run that has a 2" cleanout right at the start. Then the pipe makes a 90 turn to the left after about 5ft and then makes a 90 turn to the left and then immediately transitions to 4" pipe. Then there is a 20ft run and another 90 turn to the left before about a 65ft straight run. I intend to put a 4" cleanout just downstream of that 90 turn.

After the 65ft run it takes one last 45 to the left, runs about 10ft and then connects at a wye junction to the main house sewer line. Per my plan a 2nd 4" cleanout will be installed here just upstream of the last 45 turn to the left.

The last 10ft run connects to the main sewer line about 1ft downstream of an existing 2 way 4" cleanout. Thus with my plan both pipes of the wye connection will be served by a cleanout, one pipe from the new cleanout I will install just upstream of the last 45 turn, and the other pipe from the existing cleanout just upstream of that junction.

In Summary:

--2" cleanout at start of run from fixture.
--4" cleanout at 25' (after 2 90 turns)
--4" cleanout at 90ft before last 45 turn and and final 10' run to house sewer line.
--Pre-existing 4" cleanout just upstream of the wye junction connecting new line to sewer line.

I can put together an aerial diagram if the above is not clear.

Any feedback is much appreciated.

Sincere Thanks~Robert

 

[Joe.B]

Is there anything else connected (or planned to be connected in the future) to this 4" drain? is 115ft the closest sewer connection? 4" is a lot of pipe for a single shower.

 

[Joe.B]

Also-

--4" cleanout at 25' (after 2 90 turns)

Two 90 degree turns is more than 135 degrees in turns. Code says "An additional cleanout shall be provided in a drainage line for each aggregate horizontal change in direction exceeding 135 degrees (2.36 rad)."

 

[ICE]

4" is a lot of pipe for a single shower.

I think that the 4” is to be used so that the slope can be reduced to 1/8” per foot. The large pipe and low slope will cause a loss of velocity and diminish the scouring action. Whether that will be an issue with just a shower draining through the pipe is not certain.

 

[hardroadz]

Is there anything else connected (or planned to be connected in the future) to this 4" drain? is 115ft the closest sewer connection? 4" is a lot of pipe for a single shower.

Nothing else will be connected, and this is the only way to get to the sewer. Just slab and no crawl space, so we have to go around the house. We have between 100-115ft to cover and 46" of drop between shower drain and tie in, so we should be ok. It's just a lot of digging and money to buy 4" Schedule 40. Btw, we are going with 4" because it drains better, and technically we can get away with 1/8" per foot, although, we will be closer to just over 1/4" per foot.

If I lived in another state with not such stringent requirments as CA, I would have gone with a French drain. Much cheaper to install and the yard would benefit by getting the gray water back.

But I am determined to finish this project even though tying into sewer literally doubles the price tag of the project.

Thanks again!~Robert

 

[Joe.B]

Much cheaper to install and the yard would benefit by getting the gray water back.

Maybe I missed this somewhere along the way, but have you definitely ruled out a greywater system? Maybe some local ordinance that rules it out? CA may be very restrictive, but it's also very water conscious. The CA Plumbing Code has provisions for gray water systems and I've never seen anything in any state code that outright denies the use of greywater systems. In my opinion you're 100% correct with the statement that it would be cheaper and would benefit your yard, assuming you use grey-water friendly soaps and shampoo.