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2021 IBC 1027 Applicability

S

SeattleArch

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Seattle
I had an internal code review of a project and there was a comment on an exterior ramp that is part of the Exit Discharge route noting that we needed to provide 10' between the property line and the edge of our ramp and 10' between the ramp and our building per the 2021 edition of the IBC Chapter 10 Exterior Exit Stairways and Ramps Section 1027.5. My understanding is that this section of the code is in reference to stairs and ramps that are Exit Components ie "That portion of the egress system between the exit access and exit discharge..." and would not be applicable here. My reasoning is based both on the language in 1027 itself and 1028.1 where 1027 is excluded from being applicable to the exit discharge.

Any help in understanding what I am not understanding would be appreciated. Thanks.

EgressCourt.JPG​

What
 
Is the door discharging to the upper landing of the ramp the level of exit discharge, or is it a story above the level of exit discharge? Based on the plan, that looks like an exit discharge ramp, not an exterior exit ramp.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
Is the door discharging to the upper landing of the ramp the level of exit discharge, or is it a story above the level of exit discharge? Based on the plan, that looks like an exit discharge ramp, not an exterior exit ramp.
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The door is discharging to the top of the ramp, which is at grade the whole way.
 

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redeyedfly said:
Please see the definition of egress court.
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Thanks yes, it is the definition of a court includes yards.
1725549476324.png

I think we are meeting the requirements of an egress court as we are 17'8" from the building to the property line and a 10' wide court is required to avoid fire rated walls and protected openings.
 
steveray said:
Sort of agree IF they are funneled/ enclosed by the ramp....difficult to tell what is going on there...
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Sort of? There's nothing about funneling in the definition of a yard.

1725554589424.png

This situation is exactly why an egress court is defined. It defines a minimum space between the exit discharge and the public way.
 
redeyedfly said:
Sort of? There's nothing about funneling in the definition of a yard.

View attachment 14245

This situation is exactly why an egress court is defined. It defines a minimum space between the exit discharge and the public way.
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EVERY yard provides access to a public way...Except the ones that don't....So are you saying that every yard is an egress court? But If we can get more than 10' away from the building the wall doesn't have to be rated so it doesn't "matter"?

And when you don't provide accessibility to a public way it's OK to strand "those people" at the unrated building wall per 1009.7.2 but everyone else gets "better" egress per 1029...There's a win....
 
steveray said:
EVERY yard provides access to a public way...Except the ones that don't....So are you saying that every yard is an egress court? But If we can get more than 10' away from the building the wall doesn't have to be rated so it doesn't "matter"?

And when you don't provide accessibility to a public way it's OK to strand "those people" at the unrated building wall per 1009.7.2 but everyone else gets "better" egress per 1029...There's a win....
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Every yard definitely does not provide access to a public way, sometimes it's to a safe dispersal area. Nowhere did I say every yard is an egress court but the yard in this post is an egress court (almost textbook). Yes, If you have an egress court that is 10' wide, no protection is required at the exterior wall. Note that the path does not need to be 10' from the building, you need 10' total.

When you don't provide an accessible path to the public way you must provide an exterior area for assisted rescue per 1009.7.

This is basic egress code.
 
redeyedfly said:
Nowhere did I say every yard is an egress court but the yard in this post is an egress court (almost textbook). Yes, If you have an egress court that is 10' wide, no protection is required at the exterior wall. Note that the path does not need to be 10' from the building, you need 10' total.
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But if you are holding to the definition of a yard via egress court there is no guidance that would allow any yard to NOT be an egress court....I know it when I see it, but I think this needs to be tuned up a bit and maybe a code change....

redeyedfly said:
When you don't provide an accessible path to the public way you must provide an exterior area for assisted rescue per 1009.7.

This is basic egress code.
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Correct...and the accessible people get less protection than everyone else...
 
steveray said:
But if you are holding to the definition of a yard via egress court there is no guidance that would allow any yard to NOT be an egress court....
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I don't understand the confusion. An egress court is a path from exit discharge to the public way or safe dispersal area. What more definition do you need? If it's too narrow, you need to protect it. What other definitions do you need?


steveray said:
Correct...and the accessible people get less protection than everyone else...
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I'm not following you. You want a better definition of a court for accessibility?
 
steveray said:
Correct...and the accessible people get less protection than everyone else...
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It has been that way all along. When accessibility first entered the building codes in the early 1970s, the only concern was getting people with disabilities INTO the buildings, there was no mention of getting them OUT. Then we started to see accessible means of egress and areas of refuge, but all that went away if the building was sprinklered -- the entire floor because the area of refuge. (Back then, IIRC, they were all called "area of refuge." The term "area of rescue assistance came along later."

So then architects had to turn themselves into pretzels on alterations, trying to figure out how to fit areas of refuge/rescue assistance and 4-foot wide stairs into existing buildings that had neither.

And now the IEBC has a blanket exemption for accessible means of egress in existing buildings.

Who's on first? I Dunno's on second.
 
redeyedfly said:
I don't understand the confusion. An egress court is a path from exit discharge to the public way or safe dispersal area. What more definition do you need? If it's too narrow, you need to protect it. What other definitions do you need?



I'm not following you. You want a better definition of a court for accessibility?
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As written..."every" exit discharge door has an egress court because it opens to a yard.....If you want the egress path to the public to be 10' away from the building or protected, just say so...It speaks of the egress court being a min 44" wide (1029.2), but also says that if it is less than 10' wide (1029.3) the wall has to be fire rated...So do we need 10' wide sidewalks or rate the wall?...I'm enforcing it "correctly", don't get me wrong....I just think it's written like crap....
 
steveray said:
As written..."every" exit discharge door has an egress court because it opens to a yard.....If you want the egress path to the public to be 10' away from the building or protected, just say so...It speaks of the egress court being a min 44" wide (1029.2), but also says that if it is less than 10' wide (1029.3) the wall has to be fire rated...So do we need 10' wide sidewalks or rate the wall?...I'm enforcing it "correctly", don't get me wrong....I just think it's written like crap....
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By definition, an egress "court" is enclosed on three sides. If the yard an exit door discharges into isn't enclosed on three sides by building construction, fencing, site walls, or landscaping barriers, it isn't a discharge court.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
By definition, an egress "court" is enclosed on three sides. If the yard an exit door discharges into isn't enclosed on three sides by building construction, fencing, site walls, or landscaping barriers, it isn't a discharge court.
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That is not accurate whatsoever.

Court, yard, and egress court are all defined. Egress court includes both court and yard in the definition. There is no "discharge court".
 
steveray said:
As written..."every" exit discharge door has an egress court because it opens to a yard.....If you want the egress path to the public to be 10' away from the building or protected, just say so...It speaks of the egress court being a min 44" wide (1029.2), but also says that if it is less than 10' wide (1029.3) the wall has to be fire rated...So do we need 10' wide sidewalks or rate the wall?...I'm enforcing it "correctly", don't get me wrong....I just think it's written like crap....
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Nothing in the code says the path needs to be 10' from the building. The yard or court must be a minimum of 10' or the adjacent wall and openings need to be protected. The actual path needs to be 44" wide or the required width for the OL.

I really can't figure out how this is confusing.
 
redeyedfly said:
Nothing in the code says the path needs to be 10' from the building. The yard or court must be a minimum of 10' or the adjacent wall and openings need to be protected. The actual path needs to be 44" wide or the required width for the OL.

I really can't figure out how this is confusing.
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Nothing says "the actual path" in any of those code sections....And I am not confused.....https://up.codes/viewer/connecticut/ibc-2021/chapter/10/means-of-egress#1029.2

1029.2 Width or Capacity
The required capacity of egress courts shall be determined as specified in Section 1005.1, but the minimum width shall be not less than 44 inches (1118 mm),

1029.3 Construction and Openings
Where an egress court serving a building or portion thereof is less than 10 feet (3048 mm) in width, the..............

It just seems like this whole section could be deleted and replaced with 1 sentence that says "If the path to the public way is closer than 10' to an exterior wall, rate it 1 hour"...or something like that...I just don't see calling every sidewalk from a building an egress court...
 
steveray said:
Nothing says "the actual path" in any of those code sections....And I am not confused.....https://up.codes/viewer/connecticut/ibc-2021/chapter/10/means-of-egress#1029.2

1029.2 Width or Capacity
The required capacity of egress courts shall be determined as specified in Section 1005.1, but the minimum width shall be not less than 44 inches (1118 mm),
1029.3 Construction and Openings
Where an egress court serving a building or portion thereof is less than 10 feet (3048 mm) in width, the..............

It just seems like this whole section could be deleted and replaced with 1 sentence that says "If the path to the public way is closer than 10' to an exterior wall, rate it 1 hour"...or something like that...I just don't see calling every sidewalk from a building an egress court...
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But again, the path does not need to be 10' away from the building. They want an open area at least 10' wide.

You can have a yard with landscaping which you can't walk through that is 10' wide, the egress path within it needs to be sized for the OL and meet the surface/slope requirements. They are two different requirements for different purposes.

You could have a 44" wide sidewalk along the building and have 76" of landscaping adjoining it and not need a FRR wall.
 
redeyedfly said:
But again, the path does not need to be 10' away from the building. They want an open area at least 10' wide.

You can have a yard with landscaping which you can't walk through that is 10' wide, the egress path within it needs to be sized for the OL and meet the surface/slope requirements. They are two different requirements for different purposes.

You could have a 44" wide sidewalk along the building and have 76" of landscaping adjoining it and not need a FRR wall.
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Which is dumb and I do not believe meets the intent.....You are protecting the people from the burning building they are exiting.....If the only concern is the accumulation of heat/ smoke/ hot gasses, OK.....But...

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