Statements of special inspection -- again

[Yikes]

No. For example, go look at plumbing sheets, tell me what type of pipe goes where. You won't find it because the documents allow the plumber to choose. So how can the architect specify the listed firestopping systems if they don't even know if it's plastic or cast pipe penetrating the assembly?

Well, maybe that's where we have a different experience. My MEP engineers specify the types of pipes, types of conduits, J-boxes, refrigerant line sets, duct penetrations, trash chutes, etc., and we provide the details accordingly. They've already been value-engineered to death over the course of multiple projects, so it's unlikely the materials will change. There's actually not that many unique situations on multifamily projects.

 

[redeyedfly]

Well, maybe that's where we have a different experience. My MEP engineers specify the types of pipes, types of conduits, J-boxes, refrigerant line sets, duct penetrations, trash chutes, etc., and we provide the details accordingly. They've already been value-engineered to death over the course of multiple projects, so it's unlikely the materials will change. There's actually not that many unique situations on multifamily projects.

I build all over the US for decades and I have never once seen that. There certainly are specifications in the manual that describe every type of pipe possible for the project. But I have never once seen the type of pipe shown on the drawings where it should be used. The one exception is for all metal exposed pipe, but that is an architectural direction, not code or engineering related.

 

[steveray]

Well, maybe that's where we have a different experience. My MEP engineers specify the types of pipes, types of conduits, J-boxes, refrigerant line sets, duct penetrations, trash chutes, etc., and we provide the details accordingly. They've already been value-engineered to death over the course of multiple projects, so it's unlikely the materials will change. There's actually not that many unique situations on multifamily projects.

And good for you....Always a struggle here...

 

[steveray]

The design is delegated to the installer.

The firestopping installers I deal with are idiots...And so are the special inspectors....

 

[redeyedfly]

The firestopping installers I deal with are idiots...And so are the special inspectors....

I meant in the broader sense, I don't think the actual people who smear caulk are the same ones preparing the submittal.

All of them I would trust over the AOR to get the detailing correct.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Thread drift is natural, but we're getting far afield. I posted this to ask how many of you have problems getting the SSI to include the qualifications and certifications of the testing lab(s), and the names and qualifications of the actual special inspector technicians.

Period structural observations is in a separate section of the code from special inspections. Periodic structural observations must be made by the engineer-of-record.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

It's arguable that the firestopping isn't the engineer's responsibility, but the architect's. Then there's the debate over whether each trade (M/E/P) should be allowed to do their own firestopping -- which may result in one firestopping system for a copper or plastic water pipe going through a rated wall, and a metal or plastic electrical conduit of the same diameter a foot away using a different firestopping system, installed by a different Chuck with a Truck -- or if the G.C. should hire one firestopping subcontractor to do everything, so there's single source responsibility.

I have had two solid fire-stopping experiences. One was on a job where neither the architect nor engineer had a soggy clue what the heck was going on, totally ignored the 'submit systems for approval' line in the plans review. And after I failed about three different bunged-up attempts to firestop things, the company hired a fire-stop subcon who did everything absolutely correct, and even labelled every penetration with a sticker that indicated which system had been used.

The other was a job where neither the architect nor the engineer had a soggy clue what the heck was going on, so the contractor hired a firestop specialist who was onsite when I did a spot inspection, and was absolutely *giddy* about the fact that (a) an inspection was taking place while he was onsite and (b) that I actually knew what the heck was going on.

I have no issue with sub-trades doing their own firestopping. I don't care who does it. I just want it done right.

 

[tmurray]

Well, maybe that's where we have a different experience. My MEP engineers specify the types of pipes, types of conduits, J-boxes, refrigerant line sets, duct penetrations, trash chutes, etc., and we provide the details accordingly. They've already been value-engineered to death over the course of multiple projects, so it's unlikely the materials will change. There's actually not that many unique situations on multifamily projects.

This is my experience as well. Different materials need different sizes of pipe based on differences in friction coefficient, at least in Canada.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

No. For example, go look at plumbing sheets, tell me what type of pipe goes where. You won't find it because the documents allow the plumber to choose. So how can the architect specify the listed firestopping systems if they don't even know if it's plastic or cast pipe penetrating the assembly?

The drawings wont tell you what kind of pipe can be used where, that information is located in the project manual / specification. And I have never seen a plumbing spec that lets the plumber choose what kind of piping they can use.

 

[redeyedfly]

The drawings wont tell you what kind of pipe can be used where, that information is located in the project manual / specification. And I have never seen a plumbing spec that lets the plumber choose what kind of piping they can use.

Honestly, you're not reading close enough. Plumbing specs universally allow the plumber to choose among the listed options.

The main problem is BOs not understanding how the consultants and contractors work together. Architects are by far the least specialized, they are conductors, they have no business dealing with firestopping assemblies outside of editing the spec.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

Honestly, you're not reading close enough. Plumbing specs universally allow the plumber to choose among the listed options.

my experience with this is vastly different than yours.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

The drawings wont tell you what kind of pipe can be used where, that information is located in the project manual / specification. And I have never seen a plumbing spec that lets the plumber choose what kind of piping they can use.

I have seen plans that do not require the type of piping or a list of them. But if they are going through a fire protected wall, I will need to know what piping they are using.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

I have seen plans that do not require the type of piping or a list of them. But if they are going through a fire protected wall, I will need to know what piping they are using.

plans will almost never tell what the pipe material is. The plans will call out a 4" diameter sanitary drain pipe, and the project manual, under the appropriate section will then tell you what material that sanitary drain pipe is to be.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

plans will almost never tell what the pipe material is. The plans will call out a 4" diameter sanitary drain pipe, and the project manual, under the appropriate section will then tell you what material that sanitary drain pipe is to be.

We see VERY few projects that actually have a project manual -- and then it's like pulling teeth to get the applicant to provide it along with the plans. We see some sets of construction documents that include a sheet or three with some outline specs, but often we don't even get that.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Never saw a project manual on a small project like a tenant fit out.