Handrails or No Handrails?

[tbz]

Burring the lead I see, I guess I need to get the horse back up on its feet to beat it a little more.

Who says there was never a handrail there?

20 years ago under the original permit, was it the CABO 1&2 family code?

If so or even if FL used the SBC then, they both required, and this is from memory a handrail there with 4 risers.

Work area done under a permit, stair flight touched handrail required. I say someone removed it...or inspector missed it, does not make it compliant without it.

Insurance company still denies claim for non-compliance...

Now back to the horse....

 

[ICE]

Who requires a permit to replace pavers??? Who pulls a permit for replacing pavers??? What was inspected when the pavers were replaced???

 

[steveray]

This is an excellent evaluation of the situation. Thanks for taking the time to write this one up. I hope everyone else appreciates it.

Now let's add some context to the photos to take this to another level.

This was an existing home with a CO. The stairs were not added recently, they were part of the original build 20 years ago. There was a permit to replace the pavers in the back with the material you see now. That is what the permit was for, pavers on the patio and around the pool and of course cover the existing stairs. How does that affect anyone's opinion?

I would call it an alteration of the stair and use the IEBC accordingly:

704.1​

Alterations shall be done in a manner that maintains the level of protection provided for the means of egress.

 

[mark handler]

IMHO, Yes.

 

[mtlogcabin]

An exterior stairway is required to comply

2018 IRC

[RB] STAIRWAY. One or more flights of stairs, either interior or exterior, with the necessary landings and connecting platforms to form a continuous and uninterrupted passage from one level to another within or attached to a building, porch or deck.
[RB] STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.

 

[jar546]

Also, when the stair was first built years ago, did they comply with the applicable code at that time?

No, but someone incompetent signed off on it in the BD.

Are you telling us that the stairs previously existed with a different finished surface, and they have recently been resurfaced with a new material to match the new deck pavers?

Yes

 

[jar546]

20 years ago under the original permit, was it the CABO 1&2 family code?

SBCCI

 

[Yikes]

I would say act of changing the surface makes it an alteration to the stairs, and it needs to comply with code for alterations (handrail needs to be added). Likewise, even repairs to an existing component need to be made compliant with the applicable code at time of original construction.

If you discover something to be noncompliant to the original applicable code, and it poses a threat to life safety, it can be tagged as part of code enforcement, regardless of whether it recently got remodeled or not. But a remodel / alteration is a legitimate point to verify or provide compliance with the code at time of original construction.

 

[Sifu]

I am working from my southern command, so I don't have all my books, but the 2006 Q &A is on the premium access ICC site. This is what is provided on this topic. I faced this a long time ago in a land far, far away and it helped me apply what the code doesn't say. It would appear to say that once you hit grade, the IRC ends, but not until then. In the photo you can hit grade before the steps, so there is no further requirement. If, however you didn't hit grade, this would seem to say that anything between you and grade is in play. Not code, not even commentary, but may shed light on the intent. No matter what you end up with, if the owner doesn't want the rails, they will just take them down 5 minutes after you leave, which is what happened every time I faced this. But I was covered.

R311.1​

Stairways, ramps, exterior egress balconies, hallways and doors shall comply with this section.

Q: Where does the means of egress system end?

A: The IRC provides for a means of egress to get the occupants safely out of the building to grade. Generally speaking, it ends where the occupant walks out the front door, down the steps and onto the landing at grade level. Exit discharge is not regulated by the IRC beyond that point. Although the IBC contains some specific language about the exit discharge in the means of egress system extending to a public way, the IRC does not contain any such language.

Q: A townhouse project was constructed recently in our municipality (see Figure 3-29). The main entrance doors of the end units open to a sidewalk that turns 90 degrees and continues to a set of concrete stairs down the embankment. Does the concrete stair on the embankment need to meet the code requirements for rise, run, width of stair tread and any handrail requirements?

A: No. The concrete stairway on the embankment is not regulated by the code.

 

[steveray]

I am working from my southern command, so I don't have all my books, but the 2006 Q &A is on the premium access ICC site. This is what is provided on this topic. I faced this a long time ago in a land far, far away and it helped me apply what the code doesn't say. It would appear to say that once you hit grade, the IRC ends, but not until then. In the photo you can hit grade before the steps, so there is no further requirement. If, however you didn't hit grade, this would seem to say that anything between you and grade is in play. Not code, not even commentary, but may shed light on the intent. No matter what you end up with, if the owner doesn't want the rails, they will just take them down 5 minutes after you leave, which is what happened every time I faced this. But I was covered.

R311.1​

Stairways, ramps, exterior egress balconies, hallways and doors shall comply with this section.

Q: Where does the means of egress system end?

A: The IRC provides for a means of egress to get the occupants safely out of the building to grade. Generally speaking, it ends where the occupant walks out the front door, down the steps and onto the landing at grade level. Exit discharge is not regulated by the IRC beyond that point. Although the IBC contains some specific language about the exit discharge in the means of egress system extending to a public way, the IRC does not contain any such language.

Q: A townhouse project was constructed recently in our municipality (see Figure 3-29). The main entrance doors of the end units open to a sidewalk that turns 90 degrees and continues to a set of concrete stairs down the embankment. Does the concrete stair on the embankment need to meet the code requirements for rise, run, width of stair tread and any handrail requirements?

A: No. The concrete stairway on the embankment is not regulated by the code.

View attachment 15387

Thats kind of funny because they want an EERO to have a path to the public way....

 

[tbz]

I am working from my southern command, so I don't have all my books, but the 2006 Q &A is on the premium access ICC site. This is what is provided on this topic. I faced this a long time ago in a land far, far away and it helped me apply what the code doesn't say. It would appear to say that once you hit grade, the IRC ends, but not until then. In the photo you can hit grade before the steps, so there is no further requirement. If, however you didn't hit grade, this would seem to say that anything between you and grade is in play. Not code, not even commentary, but may shed light on the intent. No matter what you end up with, if the owner doesn't want the rails, they will just take them down 5 minutes after you leave, which is what happened every time I faced this. But I was covered.

R311.1​

Stairways, ramps, exterior egress balconies, hallways and doors shall comply with this section.

Q: Where does the means of egress system end?

A: The IRC provides for a means of egress to get the occupants safely out of the building to grade. Generally speaking, it ends where the occupant walks out the front door, down the steps and onto the landing at grade level. Exit discharge is not regulated by the IRC beyond that point. Although the IBC contains some specific language about the exit discharge in the means of egress system extending to a public way, the IRC does not contain any such language.

Q: A townhouse project was constructed recently in our municipality (see Figure 3-29). The main entrance doors of the end units open to a sidewalk that turns 90 degrees and continues to a set of concrete stairs down the embankment. Does the concrete stair on the embankment need to meet the code requirements for rise, run, width of stair tread and any handrail requirements?

A: No. The concrete stairway on the embankment is not regulated by the code.

View attachment 15387

Apples and Bananas for the comparison.

I agree with the ICC interp for the picture you posted, but not the raised patio that Jar posted.

There is a grass yard at grade between the concrete walkway and the 4ft plus drop on the left side.
And the walking surface in your interp pic is over 90% of it is at grade

Jar's post is a drop all the way round with the stair flight front and center to grade access of the dock.

A 4ft door hidden might work coming out of the home by I go back to my wood deck scenario, the raised patio is not at grade, for the standard flow of existing off it .

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

past code violation not a reason to allow the code violation to continue for the new work, hand rial is required

The position of our State Building Inspector's office has always been that "A violation is always a violation." Violations don't magically become grandfathered after _X_ years just because someone missed them at the time of construction.

IRC 2021:

R104.1 General. The building official is hereby authorized
and directed to enforce the provisions of this code. The building
official shall have the authority to render interpretations of
this code and to adopt policies and procedures in order to clarify
the application of its provisions. Such interpretations,
policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent
and purpose of this code. Such policies and procedures shall
not have the effect of waiving requirements specifically
provided for in this code.

R105.4 Validity of permit. The issuance or granting of a
permit shall not be construed to be a permit for, or an approval
of, any violation of any of the provisions of this code or of any
other ordinance of the jurisdiction. Permits presuming to give
authority to violate or cancel the provisions of this code or
other ordinances of the jurisdiction shall not be valid. The issuance
of a permit based on construction documents and other
data shall not prevent the building official from requiring the
correction of errors in the construction documents and other
data. The building official is authorized to prevent occupancy
or use of a structure where in violation of this code or of any
other ordinances of this jurisdiction.

 

[steveray]

The position of our State Building Inspector's office has always been that "A violation is always a violation." Violations don't magically become grandfathered after _X_ years just because someone missed them at the time of construction.

IRC 2021:

So just check all of your excellently maintained departmental paperwork for an approved modification or alternative means and methods before you call it a violation...

 

[ICE]

Are you going after the other things that are wrong about the stairs? It is this kind of thing that turns people into scofflaws. You know that they had to be convinced that a permit is required to replace pavers and now you're wound up about the stairs. And I am still amazed that there is such a permit as that. We would not care if they replaced the entire slab, much less pavers.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Maybe the argument should be is it a deck or not. My 2018 IRC does not have a definition. Somone posted handrails are required on decks, but it doesn't say this in my IRC. This is from Websters, notice 2C below.

deck
1 of 2
noun
ˈdek
pluraldecks
Synonyms of deck
1
: a platform in a ship serving usually as a structural element and forming the floor for its compartments
2
: something resembling the deck of a ship: such as
a
: a story or tier of a building (such as a sports stadium)
the upper deck
b
: the roadway of a bridge
c
: a flat floored roofless area adjoining a house
d
: the lid of the compartment at the rear of the body of an automobile
also : the compartment
e
: a layer of clouds
3
a
: a pack of playing cards
b
: a packet of narcotics
4
: tape deck
5
: a collection of visual or photographic slides presented usually one after another as a slideshow

 

[tbz]

Are you going after the other things that are wrong about the stairs? It is this kind of thing that turns people into scofflaws. You know that they had to be convinced that a permit is required to replace pavers and now you're wound up about the stairs. And I am still amazed that there is such a permit as that. We would not care if they replaced the entire slab, much less pavers.

I question are they actually pavers? They seem more like stones or tiles, as they don't look like dry laid, but cemented in place.

So here is the question, the surface was refinished doesn't matter if a permit was required or not, a permit was taken out, now you are there on site for inspections.

Per the documents on file at the office, handrail was required to be installed 20-years ago, do you just assume that no handrail ever existed and your predecessor missed it, or do you assume someone removed it when the surface was redone and didn't put one back?

My assumption is the later when I look at that, and as thus, I require it be installed.

Even if your predecessor missed it back then, it was still required. So karma caught up with them... it's not like it was never required, it was and is now missing.

 

[Sifu]

Seems like Glenn may be working on the definitions for decks, or maybe just frustrated like I am about it. Can't remember for sure but I know it has been discussed.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Seems like Glenn may be working on the definitions for decks, or maybe just frustrated like I am about it. Can't remember for sure but I know it has been discussed.

The best thing would not call them decks in the code. I would suggest "porch" or "open porch" especially since there are beam tables for porches.

deck
1 of 2
noun
ˈdek
pluraldecks
Synonyms of deck
1
: a platform in a ship serving usually as a structural element and forming the floor for its compartments
2
: something resembling the deck of a ship: such as
a
: a story or tier of a building (such as a sports stadium)
the upper deck
b
: the roadway of a bridge
c
: a flat floored roofless area adjoining a house
d
: the lid of the compartment at the rear of the body of an automobile
also : the compartment
e
: a layer of clouds
3
a
: a pack of playing cards
b
: a packet of narcotics
4
: tape deck
5
: a collection of visual or photographic slides presented usually one after another as a slideshow

 

[ICE]

doesn't matter if a permit was required or not, a permit was taken out, now you are there on site for inspections.

Grace Lin would issue a permit for anything. We used to have a permit called a Miscellaneous Permit. They were used for bootlegged construction and they covered all manner of work...and other things. Carnivals are an example. On occasion I would show up for an inspection and shake my head in disbelief. I would write a note to give to Grace Lin to refund the permit fee. This paver job would fall in that category.

I remember permits for yard sales and birthday parties. Grace Lin passed away and that took away some of my joy. Her husband had an unusual occupation as a hay grader. He traveled the country grading hay to be shipped to Saudi Arabia. They have special needs.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

In my state sidewalks are exempted from permits for residential and commercial sidewalks unless if part of an accessible route, 30" above grade, or has a story below.

 

[jar546]

I knew this thread would generate a lot of discussion. This is excellent.

 

[tbz]

Grace Lin would issue a permit for anything. We used to have a permit called a Miscellaneous Permit. They were used for bootlegged construction and they covered all manner of work...and other things. Carnivals are an example. On occasion I would show up for an inspection and shake my head in disbelief. I would write a note to give to Grace Lin to refund the permit fee. This paver job would fall in that category.

I remember permits for yard sales and birthday parties. Grace Lin passed away and that took away some of my joy. Her husband had an unusual occupation as a hay grader. He traveled the country grading hay to be shipped to Saudi Arabia. They have special needs.

It seems odd that a CA, LA county building department would refund anything once paid for...., but then again miracles do happen, 1980 US Olympic Hockey team proved that.

I spent 25 years in the field in NJ trying to figure out how the building departments would allow a mason to rip down a masonry front porch with a landing and 4 treads to the top of the foundation and rebuild it back to the approximate same foot print and not require a permit, they said its considered a repair until you change the layout or violate the footing. And remember footings in NJ start at a minimum of 36-inches deep, not push the sand aside like CA & CA..

But as the guard and handrail manufacture we had to pull a permit to install the new guard/handrail or "railing".

Try explaining to a customer that they just got ripped off by the mason because all the blocks are empty underneath and yes they didn't need a permit to do that work.

A structural raised masonry patio or porched attached to non-required exit doors on a home is no different than a raised wood deck IMO.

I am not sure about FL or CA, but in NJ when I was working in the field they would not have required a permit for the stone top replacement, but they had a policy that if a permit was taken out, and an inspector left the office and visited the site, inspections were done, and the property tax was adjusted.

I do agree with ICE that a permit were I worked in the field would not have been required for the stone replacement, but once the building department was on site, anything touched is in play.

The required missing handrail became the issue upon the request of the permit and the inspector showing up to do the non-required permit inspection.

Walking away after seeing a violation and refunding the money, would you do that for a open cover missing on a sub-panel box, electrical violation seen on the wall of the patio area?

 

[steveray]

Try explaining to a customer that they just got ripped off by the mason because all the blocks are empty underneath and yes they didn't need a permit to do that work.

Handrail guy is responsible for the grouting....

 

[ICE]

Walking away after seeing a violation and refunding the money, would you do that for a open cover missing on a sub-panel box, electrical violation seen on the wall of the patio area?

No, I would write a correction. It is the same with any dangerous condition however it doesn't always include a violation that is debatably not worth writing or stretching the code as we have with Jeff's example. Now I know that you and others think that the stairs require a handrail per code. I disagree and do not go lokking for problems in people's back yards.

Here is a stairway to two spas and a open patio at the top of the hill in a back yard. I assume that a permit was in hand for the in-ground spas. Would anyone make them do it over per the code with handrail? If not, then why do that in a South Florida back yard. And if you would go after this example in Brea, Ca. you would be loking for work.