Door swing and turning space.

[Sifu]

I had settled this issue in my head...until I encountered another design and went looking for the code section.

Can the space under a toilet be used for the clear space required beyond the arc of the door to avoid the required turning space?

I read through a lot of discussion the matter in the forum, but found no consensus or citable code section. However, the idea the the clear space in the exception for the turning space within a toilet room would allow the user to include the space under a toilet seems a bit silly. My reasoning for this is that I would think that there has to be room for the W/C between the arc of the door and the front of the toilet, and since the space under the toilet is low how could the full height of the W/C fit? I run up against 2009 ANSI 117.1 which allows the space under an element to count "unless otherwise specified". I just can't find any "otherwise specified" in the standard, though I was sure I had in the past.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I don't think so.

 

[TheCommish]

Look for the required hight of the clear space for the footrest on a mobile device, if the space underneath the wall hung toilet meets that requirement, then I think you could include it in a pinch. Not a good design though

 

[arwat23]

As long as the knee and/or toe clearances are provided, I believe so. I don't see anything specifying you can't use knee and toe clearance in this situation.

Edit: I guess an argument against it is that 603.2.2 exception 2 only specifies 305.3. The knee and toe clearance being included in the clear floor space is 305.4.

 

[randiasab]

I've struggled with this question before and I agree, it seems counterintuitive to use the space under the bowl. Even if 2009 ANSI 117.1 allows it "unless otherwise indicated", nothing clear explicitly prohibits it. But on the practical side, a W/C clearly cannot turn under a suspended toilet. I would like a firmer interpretation of the code too.

Mini Militia App Lock​

 

[steveray]

As ANSI clearly gives different measurements for wall hung and floor mounted they must think there is something there on manuvering.....

 

[walker.t]

Can the space under a toilet be used for the clear space required beyond the arc of the door to avoid the required turning space?

I think the answer to that is “Yes.” You’re in A117.1-2009, here’s an image from the A117.1-2017 commentary showing a circular turning space going under the front of a toilet, if the circular turning space can use the space under a toilet, I would think that applies to toe clearance under a clear floor space. This is from Figure C603.2(b):

603.2.2 exception 2 only specifies 305.3. The knee and toe clearance being included in the clear floor space is 305.4.

In my opinion, this reference should be considered a typographical error and should say just 305. The clear floor space described in 305 Clear Floor Space is not a compliant clear floor space without meeting the requirements of 305.3 Size and 305.4 Knee and Toe Clearance, you have to meet all the requirements under 305 or you don’t have a clear floor space that can be used for anything.

As ANSI clearly gives different measurements for wall hung and floor mounted they must think there is something there on manuvering.....

That had always been my assumption but I never investigated it further, today I checked the 2017 commentary:

Commentary on A117.1-2017 604.2.1 Minimum Area (partial quote, emphasis added)
The length is dependent on the type of water closet installed. Because the floor-mounted water closets encroach on toe clearances, the compartment must be 3” longer than for the wall-mounted water closet.

 

[Sifu]

306.1 General. Where space beneath an element is included
as part of the clear floor space at an element, clearance at an
element, or a turning space, the space shall comply with Section
306. Additional space shall not be prohibited beneath an
element, but shall not be considered as part of the clear floor
space or turning space.

The way this section reads, any clear space under an element must comply with 306, and 306 includes both knee and toe. So, seems like a package deal in that for a space under an element to be counted as clear space it must include both knee and toe..

Of course there is a "but", which is in the commentary, which echoes the code right up until it uses the word "OFTEN"!

Minimum dimensions for knee and toe clearances are
specified to provide design criteria when access to an
accessible element or fixture involves a person using
the space underneath an element or fixture. For
example, a forward approach to a countertop or work
surface necessitates the user’s feet and legs extending
under the countertop or work surface [see Commentary
Figure C306.1(a)]. The knee and toe
clearance dimensions establish the required unobstructed
space that must be provided to afford access
to the element. Where knee and toe clearance is
required, such as beneath a lavatory or drinking fountain,
those provisions will reference Section 306.
Knee and toe clearances are often a “package
deal.” Provisions for minimums and maximums for
both knee and toe clearances must be addressed
when the designer is looking for adequate clearance
under an object

 

[steveray]

So at a toilet they might get some toe and knee or they might get all of it....

 

[Yikes]

The image below is from the 1991 U.S. Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board "UFAS Retrofit Manual", showing how they imagined a 3D volume of space associated with a 60" turning circle. You can see how the toe space might encroach under a toilet fixture.




Perhaps inspired by DEVO?

 

[walker.t]

The way this section reads, any clear space under an element must comply with 306, and 306 includes both knee and toe. So, seems like a package deal in that for a space under an element to be counted as clear space it must include both knee and toe.

I’m taking that to mean that when an element (such as a drinking fountain, work surface, or lavatory) requires clear space below that same element, that clear floor space needs the knee and toe space. I don’t think that applies when you just want to let someone’s toes pass under the toilet, the clear floor space outside the swing of the door is not required to use the toilet.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Thank you, Yikes. I wasted over an hour looking for that cone of revolution diagram. Never thought to look in UFAS.

Toe clearance is 9" vertically. That won't take you far under most water closets.