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Reducing Stop Work notices ideas - No, I need your ideas.
- Thread starter rktect 1
- Start date
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Stop work order because of no permits or stop work orders on jobs with issued permits
arwat23
SAWHORSE
Reduce enforcement. Less enforcement = less notices.
Community location, size and sentiment play a role. I worked in Los Angeles County. Impersonal interactions were the rule. A stop work order was more of a request that can be ignored with impunity. I would need an assistant District Attorney to enforce a stop work order. By the time that effort wended it’s way through the system, a house could be sold…twice.
Yikes
SAWHORSE
As discussed on previous threads, most “stop work” orders that are issued in our local community are for work done without a permit. The vast majority of those involve residential window replacement and new fence construction along street property lines. Most of those were purchases of windows and prefab fence panels from big box retailers.
I believe that if those retailers provided notices / flyers reminding people that work without permit is subject to removal, it would greatly help homeowners stay out of trouble. I also think it would never happen, because why would they want to give people pause right when they are about to spend $$$ at their store?
I believe that if those retailers provided notices / flyers reminding people that work without permit is subject to removal, it would greatly help homeowners stay out of trouble. I also think it would never happen, because why would they want to give people pause right when they are about to spend $$$ at their store?
Yankee Chronicler
SAWHORSE
I agree. When the big box home centers sell installed windows or siding or kitchen cabinets, they make it appear that Lowe's or Home Despot is doing the work as well as selling the materials. In reality, we know that's not the case. The big box stores farm the installation out to local home improvement contractors. These contractors know they're supposed to take out permits, but I'm sure Lowe's and Home Despot aren't paying top dollar, so there's a built-in incentive to cheat.
IMHO, the state governments need to put pressure on Lowe's and Home Despot. Make THEM subject to penalties if they don't ensure that their subcontractors take out the required permits.
I had an issue with Sears and their contractor. The contractor answered the phone, “Sears”. I contacted Sears HQ in Chicago with the news that I was going to take them to court for contracting without a license. All of the sudden the contractor was paying attention.
Amy Reineri
REGISTERED
Having a lot of that impact people who wind up being my clients - and it's expensive for them as building owners or tenants to spend time and money on a build-out that is inadequate or even has to be demolished. I've decided to approach the places people start locally - they talk to licensing people, sometimes zoning and less locally the state corporation board. They also talk to banks and I am working on info pamphlets for all these locations to hand out that explains the code and how it applies to many/most of the things they might need/want to do to a building. Just that. The amount of ignorance is serious - people are all "Mickey and Judy" (Rooney and Garland) about how they will do the work - their friends who know nothing about commercial construction codes or think that a chat bot and watching some videos will make it all legal and good. And landlords and leasing agents will play stupid or even encourage delusional thinking about how little has to be done and whether existing items are already compliant or not. So getting real estate marketing signs to include a scannable bug and/or indications that they MUST speak to their building codes department before starting work in the space - that's important. Another huge source of misunderstandings is the term "permittable" or "permitted" by the Zoning offices for uses that are allowed in a specific zoning. Leasing agents and tenants will delude themselves easily that this means that their intended use already has a permit. That misunderstanding is something zoning MUST be sure is written in bold red on their on-line and in person locations and information. People have already done a build-out for a new use - at least the expensive parts of it - and one of the subs goes to pull their permit and finds out there was no permit for the change-of-use at all. Layout is non-compliant, may not even be legal with reconfiguration, etc.
I would go so far as to ask that the city have the windows of vacant/demoed units include a sticker on the inside that specifies when a permit is required - and make it illegal to cover or remove that notice unless the person doing so is a city inspector for that city.
The most effective methods are combining "advertising" and savage penalties.
Pretend you are marketing for a business, except that you are advertising the existence of your office and what needs a permit. You need to have good handouts with user-friendly instructions, and you need to have your act together internally so you aren't needlessly delaying people's permits or jerking them around with dumb red tape. You need to be accessible for questions and public interaction. This is very important because the more of this you do, the more the next part can be defended.
When you do catch people, you need to make an example of them. Every time. If you aren't willing to do this every time, regardless of the various legitimate and illegitimate pleas of ignorance and sob stories, people will continue to ignore you. The whining caused by this will spread the word way faster and more effectively than you ever can with positive advertising. It needs to be publicly understood that doing it and asking for forgiveness later is gonna hurt.
If that is too drastic for you, you pretty much just need to take the below advice like the rest of us do.
Pretend you are marketing for a business, except that you are advertising the existence of your office and what needs a permit. You need to have good handouts with user-friendly instructions, and you need to have your act together internally so you aren't needlessly delaying people's permits or jerking them around with dumb red tape. You need to be accessible for questions and public interaction. This is very important because the more of this you do, the more the next part can be defended.
When you do catch people, you need to make an example of them. Every time. If you aren't willing to do this every time, regardless of the various legitimate and illegitimate pleas of ignorance and sob stories, people will continue to ignore you. The whining caused by this will spread the word way faster and more effectively than you ever can with positive advertising. It needs to be publicly understood that doing it and asking for forgiveness later is gonna hurt.
If that is too drastic for you, you pretty much just need to take the below advice like the rest of us do.
So you catch an owner with a construction project and no permits. You cause the owner or his contractor to obtain a permit. You can double fee the permit. Not to be a contrarian, and no fatboy, that is not a religious persuasion, but so what. Hardly anyone will hear about it. Those that do hear about it are not likely to have a construction project.
It is the contractor that should get the grief.
I once had a contractor doing a reroof sans permit. He was mid thirties and rough around the edges. Covered in crude tattoos and he called me "Boss".
Well when I had him at the counter obtaining a permit he asked if there was a penalty for working without a permit... to which I said, "Oh yes there is." He asked how much and I said that the fine was set by the judge. He was ever so surprised and said, "Judge??? I have to appear in court???" I replied well yes and in our city working without a permit is a felony and in your case it might be a third strike, "Imagine that, life in prison for a reroof with no permit. Ain't that a bitch."
He was visibly shaking.
He went to a dark place.
He remembers that day as clearly as I do.
That was an awful thing to do to him.
It is the contractor that should get the grief.
I once had a contractor doing a reroof sans permit. He was mid thirties and rough around the edges. Covered in crude tattoos and he called me "Boss".
Well when I had him at the counter obtaining a permit he asked if there was a penalty for working without a permit... to which I said, "Oh yes there is." He asked how much and I said that the fine was set by the judge. He was ever so surprised and said, "Judge??? I have to appear in court???" I replied well yes and in our city working without a permit is a felony and in your case it might be a third strike, "Imagine that, life in prison for a reroof with no permit. Ain't that a bitch."
He was visibly shaking.
He went to a dark place.
He remembers that day as clearly as I do.
That was an awful thing to do to him.
steveray
SAWHORSE
Work without a permit.
steveray
SAWHORSE
First you have to convince them that you are actually trying to help them, then you have to convince them that there is no "downside" to dealing with you...Good Luck!
Here were some of my ideas which may have fallen flat on the director.
1. Create something like the Police Blotter (Building Division Code Violators) on our website. List the address, name of the owner, name of contractor.
2. Create something similar on our website for owners and contractors who have violated the building code and were brought to adjudication. Include the fine set against them.
3. Include both 1 and 2 in our every other month Village Newsletter.
4. Increase work without a permit fee to triple instead of double.
5. Create a new residential building code amendment, get it approved by the elected officials, where repeat offenders shall be issued a citation as well as the stop work notice. Attend adjudication and pay fine as determined by the judge.
1. Create something like the Police Blotter (Building Division Code Violators) on our website. List the address, name of the owner, name of contractor.
2. Create something similar on our website for owners and contractors who have violated the building code and were brought to adjudication. Include the fine set against them.
3. Include both 1 and 2 in our every other month Village Newsletter.
4. Increase work without a permit fee to triple instead of double.
5. Create a new residential building code amendment, get it approved by the elected officials, where repeat offenders shall be issued a citation as well as the stop work notice. Attend adjudication and pay fine as determined by the judge.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
1st look at the type of work being done without a permit and what you require and the fees you charge for that permit. If your fees are excessive for the scope of work and the inspections you provide then people will take the chance on not getting caught. Do you have flat fees for fences, residential re-roofs, service change outs for example. Can you issue these type of permits within 24 hours?
2nd A department needs to have a working relationship with the public and contractors not an adversarial one.
Your ideas 1 and 2 above should never be done.
Idea #3 should be limited to the number of violations and never include the owners name, the contractor or the address of the violation.
If some one wants that information have them ask for it under a FOI request.
In the beginning I was a zealous public servant. I brought in revenue. So much so that managers would remark. If I saw a toilet next to a garbage can, I was curious. If I was standing on a bootleg bedroom during a re-roof sheathing inspection... well you get the idea... A real pain in the ass.
By the end of my time I came full circle. Unless I saw danger in what you did, I didn't see it at all.
By the end of my time I came full circle. Unless I saw danger in what you did, I didn't see it at all.
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Amy Reineri
REGISTERED
The other part of this I run into is owners/tenants thinking they can "be their own general contractor" except they are hiring unqualified subs/workers - often job-site labor or people whose field of "building" is nothing at all like what they are trying to do now (Navy ship plumbing is neither residential nor commercial standards, for example.) My main comment to the owner/tenant is "their contractor must be THIS (height indication) QUALIFIED to do this project." Sometimes they think that having an architect involved will help make them qualified, but I don't do the work in the field and I don't train contractors. I break the news that they must hire someone qualified - whether as a sub contractor, consultant or general contractor - to get the work to pass inspection. Fire-rated construction is one of the main places under-qualified contractors fail. Some don't know anything about ADA or commercial codes or commercial railing heights. Multi-family construction attracts a lot of hopeful residential contractors, but it's a mix of residential and commercial - so their residential subs won't check the railing heights and the railing materials will all be too short or too weak or both. In residential, the plans are fully annotated - in commercial, the subs are supposed to know their field and know their portion of the code - or the general contractor has to know all of it and be experienced in how it is done properly.
We are closer than many realize.
Yikes
SAWHORSE
One of the things I see residential remodel contractors do a lot is a simple letter of agreement which includes the clause "owner responsible to obtain all permits required by the city". It's their equivalent of driving into a fee parking lot and they issue you a receipt that says "this contract limits our liability", which just because they said it does not mean it is true.