Under-counter glass washer and type 2 hood

[spaceart]

Believe it or not, my plan reviewer is requesting a Type II hood over an under-counter glass washer in a bar simply because the specification sheet uses the term “high temperature.” (See attached spec.)


This was my response to him:

A Type II hood is generally required for a commercial glass washer/dishwasher only when it is a large or high-capacity unit that is not under-counter. In bar applications, under-counter units are standard. Most under-counter dishwashers/glass washers are exempt from the Type II hood requirement because they generate minimal steam and heat and are designed for installation without a hood.

However, he is not accepting this explanation and is asking for documentation.


Do you know what code section or official guidance I can cite to support that an under-counter glass washer does not require a Type II hood?

Thank you so so much!

 

[arwat23]

Did the reviewer not justify their request with a code section?

 

[spaceart]

Did the reviewer not justify their request with a code section?

He uses IMC 2021 507.3.

 

[arwat23]

By the letter of the code, as far as I see, it seems like a Type II hood is required unless you have another way of removing the heat and moisture. I don't see any exception that explicitly excludes under-counter dishwashers.

 

[Sifu]

arwat beat me to it. Can you add 100sf² to the ventilation load and incorporate it into the HVAC? I have never seen that not be easily achievable?

 

[spaceart]

By the letter of the code, as far as I see, it seems like a Type II hood is required unless you have another way of removing the heat and moisture. I don't see any exception that explicitly excludes under-counter dishwashers.

View attachment 16986

 

[spaceart]

This under-counter glasswasher is designed by the manufacturer for bar use, and industry-standard bar installations do not require or include a hood above this type of equipment.

 

[spaceart]

arwat beat me to it. Can you add 100sf² to the ventilation load and incorporate it into the HVAC? I have never seen that not be easily achievable?

Just go to any bar, and they have this type of glass washer and never have such a question asked.

 

[arwat23]

This under-counter glasswasher is designed by the manufacturer for bar use, and industry-standard bar installations do not require or include a hood above this type of equipment.

Then find another way to remove the heat and steam. A hood is only required if you can't figure out how to add what Sifu suggested, or something similar.

Here's a screenshot from a restaurant product supplier's Q&A page. Not code, but it supports what the plan reviewer is saying.

 

[Sifu]

Just go to any bar, and they have this type of glass washer and never have such a question asked.

How do you know the question was never asked? I guess I haven't reviewed any of those bars, because sometimes I do ask for compliance with 507.3. I would not make a comment that says to add a hood. I would make a comment to demonstrate compliance with IMC 507.3. Most of the time though, I simply find that their ventilation is adequate without needing to make any comment and get on with my day. I can't recall ever seeing a hood over such an appliance, and I personally have never asked for one. And I don't doubt that it is often overlooked by designers and building officials, but you asked for a code section and guidance. So I offer that code section with my guidance. Good, bad, ugly, right, or wrong.

Made the exact comment last week on a plan, but that was over a deck style pizza oven...but lets not go down the pizza oven road.

 

[BN4537]

Just go to any bar, and they have this type of glass washer and never have such a question asked.

That means absolutely nothing. It is the same logical fallacy as the "I've been doing it this way for 20 years" one. Inspectors and plan reviewers who are good at their jobs hear that kind of thing all the time, and they pretty much just roll their eyes. It doesn't help your case with them at all - quite the opposite.

Most are receptive to facts that have citable, recognized sources. If the plan reviewer is willing to check out this thread, they would at least know this issue could be fixed by adding 100 cfm to the ventilation load. They could discuss with the experts here if they disagree, we love going in the weeds and proving stuff.

However, it would be very effective to use this line of reasoning on politicians and inspectors bosses who know nothing. If you don't want to add the 100 cfm to the ventilation load, that should be your next step. It ain't right, but it can be quite effective depending where you are.

 

[klarenbeek]

Pre- 2009 IMC undercounter dishwashers and several other items were exempt from type II hood requirements. When the ventilation/heating cooling load exception came in in 2009 to cover any non gas appliance requiring a type II hood, the laundry list of exceptions for no hood needed went away. Make sure you have the 100 CFM of exhaust covered (it usually is if there are other hoods in the space) and you're good. You can point out that you are meeting the exception.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

This under-counter glasswasher is designed by the manufacturer for bar use, and industry-standard bar installations do not require or include a hood above this type of equipment.

Then ask the manufacturer of the equipment how they justify no hood under the IMC.

 

[klarenbeek]

Then ask the manufacturer of the equipment how they justify no hood under the IMC.

Agree. Industry standards do not override code requirements. To avoid a hood, you need to use a code compliant method to get there.