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Fifteen Years, have we become complacent ?

We still put styrofoam in buildings, lower class young people still go to rock music "concerts" and drink, in ways it has become worse as they now take drugs as well as drink at these gatherings, like Ghost Ship.
 
[/quote]569468406
Hey, I did that when young but not in lower class!

Most of the kids of upper middle class to upper class people go to hear music at opera houses and symphony halls, some go to smaller venues for chamber music. Hopefully they are still smart enough to not take drugs which are part of the lower class music scenes. After the Ghost Ship fire so much attention was given to the parents of many of those killed, my thought at the time was that had the parents properly educated their kids they wouldn't be listening to that kind of music and taking drugs, have you every heard of a fire at an event where Beethoven or Chopin was being performed? There was a famous one in 1749 when Handle's Royal Fireworks premiered and the new concert hall built specifically for it burned down, I guess they didn't have fire inspectors in those days, but at least there wasn't styrofoam to burn either:

Classic FM said:
The build up was huge; top-class concerts open to the general public were virtually unheard of at the time and excitement was so great that tickets were sold for a public rehearsal of the music in Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens. Around 12,000 people flocked to the performance in Green Park in April 1749, resulting in a traffic jam that closed London Bridge for several hours.

Despite the frenzy of preparation, no one had factored in the possibility of bad weather. So naturally it rained, most of the fireworks refused to light, and the few that did light caused the staging to catch fire. There’s no record of what Handel made of it all, although a contemporary, Horace Walpole, reported that the evening was 'pitiful and ill-conducted' but 'very little mischief was done, and but two persons killed’.¹

One of the major policies of the communists is a class-free society, and of course egalitarianism to destroy our meritocracy wherein all people are able to climb the socioeconomic ladder based upon their merit and not birth like the European aristocracies. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about class in America:

Wikipedia said:
Most definitions of class structure group people according to wealth, income, education, type of occupation, and membership in a specific subculture or social network. Most of the social classes entirely ignore the existence of parallel Black, Hispanic and minorities societies. Sociologists Dennis Gilbert, William Thompson, Joseph Hickey, and James Henslin have proposed class systems with six distinct social classes. These class models feature an upper or capitalist class consisting of the rich and powerful, an upper middle class consisting of highly educated and affluent professionals, a middle class consisting of college-educated individuals employed in white-collar industries, a lower middle class composed of semi-professionals with typically some college education, a working class constituted by clerical and blue collar workers whose work is highly routinized, and a lower class divided between the working poor and the unemployed underclass.²


¹ http://www.classicfm.com/composers/handel/music/george-frideric-handel-music-royal-fireworks/

² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States
 
I go to a Oprah house for rock concerts all the time. mcohjt.com And I take lots of drugs, most are prescriptions.

Do you think we should be in a class system?


Is that just to deal with work??

If so can I join you.
 
Still a rock junkie, been passing drug test for 25 yrs, have seen Ozzy, ZZ, Zombie, ect. just seen Lita ford again & Five Finger, Volbeat just last year.

Do work for the city so maybe considered lower class.o_O
 
569468406

Most of the kids of upper middle class to upper class people go to hear music at opera houses and symphony halls, some go to smaller venues for chamber music. Hopefully they are still smart enough to not take drugs which are part of the lower class music scenes. After the Ghost Ship fire so much attention was given to the parents of many of those killed, my thought at the time was that had the parents properly educated their kids they wouldn't be listening to that kind of music and taking drugs, have you every heard of a fire at an event where Beethoven or Chopin was being performed? There was a famous one in 1749 when Handle's Royal Fireworks premiered and the new concert hall built specifically for it burned down, I guess they didn't have fire inspectors in those days, but at least there wasn't styrofoam to burn either:



One of the major policies of the communists is a class-free society, and of course egalitarianism to destroy our meritocracy wherein all people are able to climb the socioeconomic ladder based upon their merit and not birth like the European aristocracies. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about class in America:




¹ http://www.classicfm.com/composers/handel/music/george-frideric-handel-music-royal-fireworks/

² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States[/QUOTE]
Thanks for letting me know what my generation does. I was very surprised to hear that rich people don't go to parties and do drugs. My experience is quite the opposite, but maybe that's just me.

Having been to these parties, I can personally inform you there are people there from any socio-economic background and ethnicity... and most of them are doing drugs. Personally, I drink on occasion, but have never done anything else.

You might be showing your age somewhat here...
 
T Murray said:
You might be showing your age somewhat here...

You are right, at 82 I come from a much better age, I've watched things go downhill and it's painful, much of the world sees us as a corrupt society wanting to dominate the world with our New World Order, when the Pussy Riot thing hit Russia I thought Putin was going to go crazy thinking our corrupt culture was permeating his country. Why do you think theocracies hate us so? Many countries and their religions think we should be destroyed, just look at what's happening to Europe right now, with Sub Saharan Africans and Middle Eastern Muslims invading destroying the culture of the Enlightenment, draining the entitlement societies into bankruptcy. Here I thought that with a change in administrations we could clean house in the Justice Department and get rid of this unconstitutional ADA thing, come to find out the Justice Department is loaded with corrupt lifetime civil servants, it has much bigger problems than ADA. The FBI is also part of the Justice Department, just look at the corruption there, and here I thought the major corruption in this country was at the local level like Building Departments illegally charging fees and diverting them to other uses.
 
You are right, at 82 I come from a much better age, I've watched things go downhill and it's painful, much of the world sees us as a corrupt society wanting to dominate the world with our New World Order, when the Pussy Riot thing hit Russia I thought Putin was going to go crazy thinking our corrupt culture was permeating his country. Why do you think theocracies hate us so? Many countries and their religions think we should be destroyed, just look at what's happening to Europe right now, with Sub Saharan Africans and Middle Eastern Muslims invading destroying the culture of the Enlightenment, draining the entitlement societies into bankruptcy. Here I thought that with a change in administrations we could clean house in the Justice Department and get rid of this unconstitutional ADA thing, come to find out the Justice Department is loaded with corrupt lifetime civil servants, it has much bigger problems than ADA. The FBI is also part of the Justice Department, just look at the corruption there, and here I thought the major corruption in this country was at the local level like Building Departments illegally charging fees and diverting them to other uses.

Since when did this thread started by showing a nightclub fire get turned into a political and socioeconomic one? We are here for building codes not politics and I have posted about this before. Knock it off....again. There are plenty of other sites to discuss politics, moral values and socioeconomic behaviors. Not here.
 
Since when did this thread started by showing a nightclub fire get turned into a political and socioeconomic one? We are here for building codes not politics and I have posted about this before. Knock it off....again. There are plenty of other sites to discuss politics, moral values and socioeconomic behaviors. Not here.

Jeff:

The problem is the International Codes have gone well beyond health and safety and are now political, particularly here in California where building departments are illegally diverting money to other uses, we are averaging 7 years to get a permit to build a house in the Bay Area, the building departments deliberately sit on them because One Bay Area wants affordable housing and not the housing most of us build. Then again maybe I'm wasting my time here, maybe all this forum is about is a spot for a bunch of guys who want to to go work every day and take home a paycheck.
 
Jeff:

The problem is the International Codes have gone well beyond health and safety and are now political, particularly here in California where building departments are illegally diverting money to other uses, we are averaging 7 years to get a permit to build a house in the Bay Area, the building departments deliberately sit on them because One Bay Area wants affordable housing and not the housing most of us build. Then again maybe I'm wasting my time here, maybe all this forum is about is a spot for a bunch of guys who want to to go work every day and take home a paycheck.

Using permit fees to generate revenue above the actual costs of running the department is not limited to California. It is happening in every single state in the country and has been for decades. Yes, that is technically illegal as "taxation without representation" but it is neither new or rare. At the same time, some smaller communities lose money and struggle just to provide the needed services. It is rare that the excess money above the cost of running a code enforcement department is called into question but I can assure you in at least one instance in Pennsylvania, the courts sided with the permit holder and limited the amount of fees an agency can charge. PA now has case law to back that up. The problem is that no one pushes back unless we are talking big money and due to the fact that no one wants to "rock the boat" by creating tension with an enforcement agency knowing that their project still needs to go through plan review, inspections and the issuing of a C of O.

So if you want to make a statement such as mine above, use it as a guide. If you want to name call and make this political with wild accusations and opinions, that is not welcome. You are always entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts. Just tone it down. Conspiracy theorists not welcome, factual posts are. Youtube had to act on Alex Jones, I don't want to have to do the same to you.
 
Using permit fees to generate revenue above the actual costs of running the department is not limited to California. It is happening in every single state in the country and has been for decades. Yes, that is technically illegal as "taxation without representation" but it is neither new or rare. At the same time, some smaller communities lose money and struggle just to provide the needed services. It is rare that the excess money above the cost of running a code enforcement department is called into question but I can assure you in at least one instance in Pennsylvania, the courts sided with the permit holder and limited the amount of fees an agency can charge. PA now has case law to back that up. The problem is that no one pushes back unless we are talking big money and due to the fact that no one wants to "rock the boat" by creating tension with an enforcement agency knowing that their project still needs to go through plan review, inspections and the issuing of a C of O.

So if you want to make a statement such as mine above, use it as a guide. If you want to name call and make this political with wild accusations and opinions, that is not welcome. You are always entitled to your own opinions, just not your own facts. Just tone it down. Conspiracy theorists not welcome, factual posts are. Youtube had to act on Alex Jones, I don't want to have to do the same to you.
Jeff:

It's hard to respond to this statement because you acknowledge my points, in California back in the early 2000s the NAHB sued several cities for charging over the cost of delivery of services and won, the cities paid the damages and resumed their illegal activity. All I can say is illlegally taking money from people is far worse than minor violations like those pointed out by Tiger here on almost a daily basis. I had a good inspector who had a sign up in his cubicle saying: "Green is the new Red", eventually he told me he was quiting, he couldn't take it anymore. At that time he told me he had no idea who would be assigned to me but named two guys who he said were real a$$holes, they would nitpick contractors then come back into the office bragging about what they were doing, isn't that a lot of what's going on here? BTW, I did get another great guy, he told me: "You know what you are doing, I'm just going to let you do what you want," He did return on his own one day after an inspection with a sheet of paper, on the sheet was a special county ordinance showing propane pans being turned up 6" around the edges instead of the 2" that we normally do, he appologized and asked me to rebuild my propane pans. At the end when he went to sign the final he asked: "Are you sure you want me to sign this, have you been paid yet?" I said no but I'll get the last million dollars when he did sign, he grabbed his pen and asked: "Where do you want me to sign?"

My fear is that we are losing all the good guys who don't want to be part of a political agenda, I guess I hope to influence those here to be whistleblowers and expose those AHJs who are committing crimes. As I pointed out yesterday, why does it cost $200,000 to permit and inspect a 4,000 foot house in Calfiornia while a 4,000 foot house in Nevada can be permitted and inspected for a little over $3,000? Part of it I'm sure is the fact that the Building Department has incorporated the Housing Department as a way to fund housing for the poor with permit fees paid by us contractors, pure Marxist: "From Each according to his Abilities, too Each according to his Needs". Again, not only are codes political, but entire building departments are political.
 
Jeff:

It's hard to respond to this statement because you acknowledge my points, in California back in the early 2000s the NAHB sued several cities for charging over the cost of delivery of services and won, the cities paid the damages and resumed their illegal activity. All I can say is illlegally taking money from people is far worse than minor violations like those pointed out by Tiger here on almost a daily basis. I had a good inspector who had a sign up in his cubicle saying: "Green is the new Red", eventually he told me he was quiting, he couldn't take it anymore. At that time he told me he had no idea who would be assigned to me but named two guys who he said were real a$$holes, they would nitpick contractors then come back into the office bragging about what they were doing, isn't that a lot of what's going on here? BTW, I did get another great guy, he told me: "You know what you are doing, I'm just going to let you do what you want," He did return on his own one day after an inspection with a sheet of paper, on the sheet was a special county ordinance showing propane pans being turned up 6" around the edges instead of the 2" that we normally do, he appologized and asked me to rebuild my propane pans. At the end when he went to sign the final he asked: "Are you sure you want me to sign this, have you been paid yet?" I said no but I'll get the last million dollars when he did sign, he grabbed his pen and asked: "Where do you want me to sign?"

My fear is that we are losing all the good guys who don't want to be part of a political agenda, I guess I hope to influence those here to be whistleblowers and expose those AHJs who are committing crimes. As I pointed out yesterday, why does it cost $200,000 to permit and inspect a 4,000 foot house in Calfiornia while a 4,000 foot house in Nevada can be permitted and inspected for a little over $3,000? Part of it I'm sure is the fact that the Building Department has incorporated the Housing Department as a way to fund housing for the poor with permit fees paid by us contractors, pure Marxist: "From Each according to his Abilities, too Each according to his Needs". Again, not only are codes political, but entire building departments are political.

OK, there is nothing wrong with the post you just made. It appears to be factual and explains things while at the same time you are getting across your point without being derogatory or having inflammatory statements. This we could have all day, every day without any issues. Thank you for your input and listening.
 
If you where to ask for a break down of those "Permit Fees" it would look like this in my jurisdiction
14% building related fee and 86% impact fees. I imagine CA has a lot more impact fees and review fees then we do.

$240,000.00 evaluation
Plan Review Fee $ 50.00
Building Permit Fee $1,558.85
Water Impact Fee $2,567.00
Sewer Impact Fee $5,757.00
Storm Water Impact Fee $1,121.00
Police Impact Fee $ 41.00
Fire Impact Fee $ 483.00

Total Fees
paid when permit
is issued $11,577.85
 
If you where to ask for a break down of those "Permit Fees" it would look like this in my jurisdiction
14% building related fee and 86% impact fees. I imagine CA has a lot more impact fees and review fees then we do.

$240,000.00 evaluation
Plan Review Fee $ 50.00
Building Permit Fee $1,558.85
Water Impact Fee $2,567.00
Sewer Impact Fee $5,757.00
Storm Water Impact Fee $1,121.00
Police Impact Fee $ 41.00
Fire Impact Fee $ 483.00

Total Fees
paid when permit
is issued $11,577.85
Mountain Man:

If you increased that evaluation by a factor of 10 to $2.4 million would all of the impact fees go up by a factor of 10? BTW, myself and others do everything possible to create a remodel rather than a new home because AHJs encourage remodeling existing homes while discouraging new homes, while remodeling costs a lot more than building new we drastically decrease permit times. I recently had a new Impact Fee: Roads and Airports, I went to a hearing and argued that I was decreasing my square footage by 10%, decreasing my bedrooms form 5 to 4, decreasing my bathrooms from 4½ to 4, the main reason I was doing this to make the home earthquake-proof and decrease my carbon footprint, in fact I had the architect label the plans: "Earthquake Retrofit". At the Roads and Airports hearing I was asked if the owners were going to have more children impacting the roads and airports? I responded no they had 2 children and that's all they intended to have, so there would be no impact on roads and airports, as a society aren't we getting rather personal asking people how many children they are going to have? In the end I had an Environmental inspector try to throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing, to get the permit signed off I was sent to an older gal in the department by the head plan checker, an older good guy, she asked if my septic and leach fields had been built as planned? I said no-one knows but sign me off so I can get started and when I have a backhoe there I'll open everything up and call you to come out, that worked but when I called I got a young gal and she started challenging everything raising my sewer costs by over $100,000, like an office could be slept in so she called it a bedroom, the next day I called the older gal telling her what had happened, she said: "Oh no, you didn't get so-and-so, she's a Greenie from Sonoma State, I'll tear her report up and come out myself, she approved me as planned. I'm seeing a distinct pattern, the older people are by-and-large good people, but the younger ones coming out of these left-wing colleges are out to save the planet no matter what it costs someone else.
 
Back on topic:

I think we will always have these events. People need to be reminded why we have certain safety laws in order for the politicians to be able to support them. It is always cyclical. We have the event, enforcement increases, there are no further events, enforcement gradually decreases, once enforcement decreases enough we have another event. rinse and repeat.

A good example was the wave of people who refused to get their children vaccinated. No one had gotten the diseases in forever due to vaccinations. Parents then decide that the vaccinations are more dangerous than the diseases they prevent, so they do not vaccinate their children. The children get the disease that the vaccination would have prevented and the parents realize that they made a horrendous mistake and then advocate the need for these vaccinations. In about 50 years we will do this all over again.
 
If you where to ask for a break down of those "Permit Fees" it would look like this in my jurisdiction
14% building related fee and 86% impact fees. I imagine CA has a lot more impact fees and review fees then we do.

$240,000.00 evaluation
Plan Review Fee $ 50.00
Building Permit Fee $1,558.85
Water Impact Fee $2,567.00
Sewer Impact Fee $5,757.00
Storm Water Impact Fee $1,121.00
Police Impact Fee $ 41.00
Fire Impact Fee $ 483.00

Total Fees
paid when permit
is issued $11,577.85


I'm going back off topic, but:

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O

Ho-ly bleep! Those are unimaginable numbers where I am. That's ~5% on top of the cost of the house! We don't build very many new ones now, but there would never be another house built in my town if our permit fees were even half of that.

Our new construction fees are sf-based, so $2.4 mil or $240K would cost you the same money.

4,000sf would cost:

$800 permit (4000 @ $0.20/sf)
$400 for a 1" water line
$400 for a sewer tap
No fee for residential plan review
No impact fees
No inspection fees

All done and out the door for $1600.00

The differences are crazy. I understand why they are, but it still seems a little nonsensical when you look at the numbers. :confused:
 
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