117 or ADA?

[steveray]

Not too complicated I think, but here goes: new "bar" area inside an athletic facility, was going to be a snack bar, now a liquor permit has come in, state liquor says they have to keep the two areas seperate. Problem (I think) is...all tall counters inside the "bar" area...snack bar is at an accessible height, but I do not believe there is planned to be an accessible "spot at the bar to get a drink"

None of the other local municipalities that I have spoken to have been enforcing this, so I am really looking for a code (or ADA section) to hang my hat on!

Thanks in advance!

Ray

2003 ICodes w/ 2005 & 2009 CT amendments

 

[Fritz]

I think you need to look at Page 85 and 86 of 117-03

Fritz

 

[mark handler]

ICC/ANSI A117.1-2003

902 Dining Surfaces and Work Surfaces

902.1 General. Accessible dining surfaces and work surfaces shall comply with Section 902.

EXCEPTION: Dining surfaces and work surfaces primarily for children’s use shall be permitted to comply with Section 902.4.

902.2 Clear Floor Space. Clear floor space complying with Section 305, positioned for a forward approach, shall be provided. Knee and toe clearance complying with Section 306 shall be provided. 902.3 Height. The tops of dining surfaces and work surfaces shall be 28 inches (710 mm) minimum and 34 inches

ADAAG

5.1* General. Except as specified or modified in this section, restaurants and cafeterias shall comply with the requirements of section 4. Where fixed tables (or dining counters where food is consumed but there is no service) are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the fixed tables (or a portion of the dining counter) shall be accessible and shall comply with 4.32 as required in 4.1.3(18). In establishments where separate areas are designated for smoking and non-smoking patrons, the required number of accessible fixed tables (or counters) shall be proportionally distributed between the smoking and non-smoking areas. In new construction, and where practicable in alterations, accessible fixed tables (or counters) shall be distributed throughout the space or facility. Appendix Note

5.2 Counters and Bars. Where food or drink is served at counters exceeding 34 in (865 mm) in height for consumption by customers seated on stools or standing at the counter, a portion of the main counter which is 60 in (1525 mm) in length minimum shall be provided in compliance with 4.32 or service shall be available at accessible tables within the same area.

5.3 Access Aisles. All accessible fixed tables shall be accessible by means of an access aisle at least 36 in (915 mm) clear between parallel edges of tables or between a wall and the table edges.

5.4 Dining Areas. In new construction, all dining areas, including raised or sunken dining areas, loggias, and outdoor seating areas, shall be accessible. In non-elevator buildings, an accessible means of vertical access to the mezzanine is not required under the following conditions: 1) the area of mezzanine seating measures no more than 33 percent of the area of the total accessible seating area; 2) the same services and decor are provided in an accessible space usable by the general public; and, 3) the accessible areas are not restricted to use by people with disabilities. In alterations, accessibility to raised or sunken dining areas, or to all parts of outdoor seating areas is not required provided that the same services and decor are provided in an accessible space usable by the general public and are not restricted to use by people with disabilities.

 

[steveray]

Thanx Mark... That (5.2) is basically what I am looking for... nothing in the "code" that requires it...just those pesky federal laws... I will make the owner, and architect, and GC aware. I guess people around here are of the persuasion that if there is any accessible seating, they are OK...not the whole "equal experience" intent.

 

[steveray]

1108.2.9.1 Dining surfaces.

Where dining surfaces for the consumption of food or drink are provided, at least 5 percent, but not less than one, of the seating and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall be accessible and be distributed throughout the facility.

I guess that gets us there also on the "distribution" end of things

 

[north star]

= = = = = =

steveray,

Yep, definitely let us all know how things work out for you, when you

spread the [ code ] sunshine on the owner, architect and the G.C.

You'll probably see their bottom lips drop and they'll look like

someone stole their cornbread from them.

= = = = = =

 

[peach]

Be careful what you cite; if you don't have the authority to enforce Federal law, stick what's in IBC and ANSI A117.

I got in trouble on a job once (in fact, after I left, I understand they made the developer) include a 30" works surface in a community kitchen (the Code only requires in a living/dwelling unit).