5 Operations to Retract the Latch??

[LGreene]

I know we've talked about this before, but we have never been able to get everyone to agree. I'd love to hear your arguments for or against on this one. It's an exit at the Dept. of Motor Vehicles, where 4 surface bolts have been installed in addition to the lockset. Some of the bolts are not within the allowable range for operating hardware, and the code requires egress doors to be unlatched with one operation. The DMV said that they keep the 4 surface bolts retracted while they're open. Is this acceptable?

You can see the photo here: http://idighardware.com/2013/11/ww-down-at-the-dmv/

 

[Builder Bob]

5 Operations to Retract the Latch??

Not legal disgruntled employee customer can use the same barrel bolts to lock people in

 

[cda]

Is it marked as an exit?

 

[LGreene]

Yes, it is a marked exit.

 

[LGreene]

Not legal disgruntled employee customer can use the same barrel bolts to lock people in

You mean like when I was crying over them giving me grief about bringing the wrong utility bill? I could have done some serious damage that day.

 

[fatboy]

Agree with BB........

 

[north star]

= = =

If "Door Guru Lori" wants to pursue some type of action on this matter,

what code section(s) can she use to provide to "the powers that be",

...either the Fire Marshall, ...the Building Official, ...the local media,

...others ?........Yeah, this has polla-ticks written all over it !

Lori,

What codes would be applicable in your application ?

+ + +

 

[cda]

= = =If "Door Guru Lori" wants to pursue some type of action on this matter,

what code section(s) can she use to provide to "the powers that be",

...either the Fire Marshall, ...the Building Official, ...the local media,

...others ?........Yeah, this has polla-ticks written all over it !

Lori,

What codes would be applicable in your application ?

+ + +

1008.1.9 Door operations. Except as specifically permitted by this section egress doors shall be readily openable from the egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

1008.1.9.4 Bolt locks. Manually operated flush bolts or surface bolts are not permitted.

 

[LGreene]

1008.1.9.4 Bolt locks. Manually operated flush bolts or surface bolts are not permitted.

This section is really referring to flush bolts and surface bolts used on pairs of doors, but I guess you could interpret it in a way that would apply to this door.

I would use this section from the 2009 IBC:

1008.1.9.5 Unlatching. The unlatching of any door or leaf shall not require more than one operation.

Exceptions:

1. Places of detention or restraint.

2. Where manually operated bolt locks are permitted by Section 1008.1.9.4.

3. Doors with automatic flush bolts as permitted by Section 1008.1.9.3, Exception 3.

4. Doors from individual dwelling units and sleeping units of Group R occupancies as permitted by Section 1008.1.9.3, Exception 4.

 

[cda]

Lori, with all door respect::

Would have used this section on the dmv door with four "surface bolts"

1008.1.9.4 Bolt locks. Manually operated flush bolts or surface bolts are not permitted.

Exceptions:

1. On doors not required for egress in individual dwelling units or sleeping units.

2. Where a pair of doors serves a storage or equipment room, manually operated edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf.

3. Where a pair of doors serves an occupant load of less than 50 persons in a Group B, F or S occupancy, manually operated edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf. The inactive leaf shall contain no doorknobs, panic bars or similar operating hardware.

4. Where a pair of doors serves a Group B, F or S occupancy, manually operated edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf provided such inactive leaf is not needed to meet egress width requirements and the building is equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1. The inactive leaf shall contain no doorknobs, panic bars or similar operating hardware.

5. Where a pair of doors serves patient care rooms in Group I-2 occupancies, self-latching edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf provided that the inactive leaf is not needed to meet egress width requirements and the inactive leaf contains no doorknobs, panic bars or similar operating hardware.

 

[LGreene]

Lori, with all door respect::Would have used this section on the dmv door with four "surface bolts"

1008.1.9.4 Bolt locks. Manually operated flush bolts or surface bolts are not permitted...

That's totally up to you but my understanding of this section based on the commentary and discussions with the ICC is that it is meant to apply to bolts on the inactive leaf of a pair of doors. But these are surface bolts and the IBC isn't specific so I guess you could apply it here. If this door had just one surface bolt and no other locking or latching hardware, and the bolt was within the allowable range for accessible hardware and the design of the bolt was such that it could be operated by someone with a disability, would you require the surface bolt to be removed based on this section?

P.S. You know I'm not being argumentative, right? I just like to learn as much as possible from y'all.

 

[Kaplagh]

1008.1.9.4 Bolt locks. Manually operated flush bolts or surface bolts are not permitted.

Exceptions:

1. On doors not required for egress in individual dwelling units or sleeping units.

2. Where a pair of doors serves a storage or equipment room, manually operated edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf.

3. Where a pair of doors serves an occupant load of less than 50 persons in a Group B, F or S occupancy, manually operated edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf. The inactive leaf shall contain no doorknobs, panic bars or similar operating hardware.

4. Where a pair of doors serves a Group B, F or S occupancy, manually operated edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf provided such inactive leaf is not needed to meet egress width requirements and the building is equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1. The inactive leaf shall contain no doorknobs, panic bars or similar operating hardware.

5. Where a pair of doors serves patient care rooms in Group I-2 occupancies, self-latching edge- or surface-mounted bolts are permitted on the inactive leaf provided that the inactive leaf is not needed to meet egress width requirements and the inactive leaf contains no doorknobs, panic bars or similar operating hardware.

Is the DMV not a B occupancy? It may be different in the IBC but the 2010 CBC section 304.1 Business Group B includes Civic Administration.

 

[Kaplagh]

Disregard the above post. I should have looked at the picture. Too many things going on here atm,.

:wstupid

 

[cda]

That's totally up to you but my understanding of this section based on the commentary and discussions with the ICC is that it is meant to apply to bolts on the inactive leaf of a pair of doors. But these are surface bolts and the IBC isn't specific so I guess you could apply it here. If this door had just one surface bolt and no other locking or latching hardware, and the bolt was within the allowable range for accessible hardware and the design of the bolt was such that it could be operated by someone with a disability, would you require the surface bolt to be removed based on this section?P.S. You know I'm not being argumentative, right? I just like to learn as much as possible from y'all.

I need to read the commentary but

To me it says you cannot do "A"

"Except in these conditions"

It has been there forever and that is how I understand it no surface bolts allowed

To me it is a locking device also

 

[kasa]

I would order these off using "1008.1.8.4 Bolt locks. Manually operated flush bolts or surface bolts are not permitted." The part about doors in pairs is the exception, not what kind of doors it's applicable to. All the sections of 1008.1.8 is dealing with egress door operation, so I apply the sections to all egress doors (also regardless of capacity, in the case of this section).