903.2.11.1.1 ?

[mtlogcabin]

[F] 903.2.11.1.1 Opening dimensions and access.

Openings shall have a minimum dimension of not less than 30 inches (762 mm). Such openings shall be accessible to the fire department from the exterior and shall not be obstructed in a manner that fire fighting or rescue cannot be accomplished from the exterior.

Another jurisdiction that I am helping out

Open parking structure. The first tier has a mesh panel over the ventilation openings. Local FD says this is a violation of 903.2.11.1.1 and the structure needs to be sprinkled because the mesh covering interferes with the fire fighting and rescue operations.

the opening on Baker street on tier one are going to be covered with decorative mesh and tiers two and three openings will have decorative window frames...... it is our opinion that as designed this facility does not have adequate open ventilation to remove the heat and toxic gasses created from a single car fire let along multiple cars on fire. In addition, the 1st Street and Baker Avenue sides are obstructed in a manner that fire fighting and rescue cannot be accomplished from the exterior

I believe they are overreaching since the mesh panels could be easily breached with the equipment they carry. Sure it might take more than hand tools but what is an obstruction to a fire fighter? They breach locked solid wood or metal doors. I have seen access panels installed along walls that need to be removed for FD access, decorative block that can be knocked out in a few hits and many other scenarios acceptable to other departments.

What do you think?

 

[cda]

Does that section even apply to parking garages??

OPEN PARKING GARAGE. A structure or portion of a structure with the openings as described in Section 406.3.3.1 on two or more sides that is used for the parking or storage of private motor vehicles as described in Section 406.3.4.

Open parking garages are defined as having uniformly distributed openings on no less than two sides totaling no less than 40 percent of the building perimeter. The aggregate area of the openings is to be a minimum of 20 percent of the total wall area of all perimeter walls (see Figure 406.3.3.1).

 

[Builder Bob]

Escape from a (fire) flash over is measured in seconds.... not minutes required by tool usage to breach or force an opening....bunker gear gives about five seconds of protection before it has degraded to point that it no longer provides protection in a flash over (1200 degree exposure)

Been in a few spots where I am glad that our county did not require use of impact glass in structures.......

The only way to prove the firefighters concerns are invalid is to use a professional fire protection engineer with fire modeling skills....

 

[ICE]

It might not be the fire dept. that's attempting a rescue.

 

[cda]

Code also says "opening"

And not "openable"

 

[JBI]

Fire Code Section 902.3.11.1.1 is a sub-section of FC 902.3.11.1 which is titled Stories without openings. The subject building is an OPEN parking garage.

Would they prefer windows to the mesh?

Taking code out of context is all too common, as is the case here IMHO.

 

[cda]

Escape from a (fire) flash over is measured in seconds.... not minutes required by tool usage to breach or force an opening....bunker gear gives about five seconds of protection before it has degraded to point that it no longer provides protection in a flash over (1200 degree exposure)Been in a few spots where I am glad that our county did not require use of impact glass in structures.......

The only way to prove the firefighters concerns are invalid is to use a professional fire protection engineer with fire modeling skills....

Normally I would not say this,,,

No,,

Apply the code,,

Which can be done in various ways

 

[cda]

[F] 903.2.11.1.1 Opening dimensions and access.Openings shall have a minimum dimension of not less than 30 inches (762 mm). Such openings shall be accessible to the fire department from the exterior and shall not be obstructed in a manner that fire fighting or rescue cannot be accomplished from the exterior.

Another jurisdiction that I am helping out

Open parking structure. The first tier has a mesh panel over the ventilation openings. Local FD says this is a violation of 903.2.11.1.1 and the structure needs to be sprinkled because the mesh covering interferes with the fire fighting and rescue operations.

the opening on Baker street on tier one are going to be covered with decorative mesh and tiers two and three openings will have decorative window frames...... it is our opinion that as designed this facility does not have adequate open ventilation to remove the heat and toxic gasses created from a single car fire let along multiple cars on fire. In addition, the 1st Street and Baker Avenue sides are obstructed in a manner that fire fighting and rescue cannot be accomplished from the exterior

I believe they are overreaching since the mesh panels could be easily breached with the equipment they carry. Sure it might take more than hand tools but what is an obstruction to a fire fighter? They breach locked solid wood or metal doors. I have seen access panels installed along walls that need to be removed for FD access, decorative block that can be knocked out in a few hits and many other scenarios acceptable to other departments.

What do you think?

How long is the wall???

 

[north star]

@ ~ @

Which code edition please, and why are the screens installed,

...decorative ?



@ ~ @

 

[mtlogcabin]

About 115 ft. The mesh covers are only on tier 1. This detail is from inside looking out

View attachment 1256

View attachment 1256

/monthly_2015_12/572953d97f234_parkinggarage.JPG.a4186f9492b2a4201acb7f38ee9e8511.JPG

 

[cda]

About 115 ft. The mesh covers are only on tier 1. This detail is from inside looking out

All they need is two "ahj" approved openings

Seems like easiest solution

And the opening required is not that big

 

[IJHumberson]

mtlogcabin,

I agree with you - they are overreaching the code requirement. If you think about it, the quoted code section applies to all buildings other than Group U, and the "openings" in typical buildings are not open-air openings into the building. In almost all buildings, the required openings are sealed up with windows of some sort, and the code doesn't regulate how easy or how hard it is to breach those windows - depending on the method of attachment to the building, the wire mesh might be just as easy to breach as a window wall in an office building. Maybe the best tactic would be to see if the AHJ would accept some of the mesh panels having some means of opening them, or part of them, from the outside. (just a thought)