A-3 wants to have sleep overs

[earshavewalls]

We have a gymnastic school that has been doing lots of unpermitted work over the past few years. They are still in the process of achieving full code compliance and are now applying to add overnight sleepovers for the kids!

This is an A-3 and I cannot find anything in the code that would permit this activity, but I also cannot find anything that prohibits it, exactly. Planning and Zoning may have something to say about it, but we can't seem to find anything. It just doesn't feel right........they plan on having the kids sleep on the floor exercise mat in sleeping bags that they will bring with them.

I have never heard of anything like this (legally anyway). I doubt that insurance companies covering the building would be happy about this. Has anyone had any experience with this sort of thing? The business owner has not been very cooperative in complying with applicable codes and in bringing the building up to seismic requirements (change of use from warehouse to gymnasium originally). They moved into this building without obtaining any permits.

There is a lot of political pressure to allow this, but overnight stays with children under 18 years of age in a building that is barely qualified as an A-3 (type III-B sprinklered) is dicey, to say the least, especially in the litigeous environment of California.

 

[vegas paul]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

Here's a wrench to throw at them... If it was (illegally) converted from a warehouse, how are they meeting IBC 1204.1? Sounds like some sort of extended day-care classification might be appropriate, think I-1, R-3, etc.

 

[earshavewalls]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

That's where we wanted to go with it.....more like R-1 or an I or even an E (except that it isn't really grade levels). It's just wrong on so many levels. The owner has political clout and is using it to do pretty much whatever they want to do.

I refused to approve it, but another plan checker is probably going to have to, just because that's what he does......go along. I'm not concerned about personal liability, just the safety of the kids. It's amazing what people will do to make a buck.....and how little the welfare of the children is taken into consideration.

 

[jim baird]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

Sounds to me like you guys are getting the same truckload dumped on you that my group did.

Local small business crying about cost and how ignert gubmint won't let them be, and telling gubmint it is gubmint's problem to tell them just how to comply.

It really is not your problem to solve their compliance issues, as you likely well know.

Once I told a cpl of good ole boys who queried about throwing up a no-name, whatever commercial building in hopes of drawing a rent-paying tenant that their job was to hire someone to help them tell us how their building would comply. They threw up their hands and said, "Well we don't have to do anything." And they didn't.

I am not generally "anti-growth" but I think we are better off without this particular pair of yahoos having built anything.

 

[brudgers]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

Does your department prohibit local churches from having lock-ins for their youth groups?

Do you go out of your way to catch traveling mission groups who spend the night at local churches?

If not, what's the difference?

 

[cda]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

Its an A so should have plenty of exiting, about all you are missing is some smoke detectors.

Yes this type of thing has been going on for very long time, and have not heard any bad events.

More than likely you will find some kids or adults up most of the night.

to me no biggie, as long as not locking down doors so they cannot get out.

Sounds like smoe night inspections need to be done.

 

[JBI]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

Check for adequate Light & Ventilation reqs per code, ensure adequate exiting and unobstructed paths of egress (and smoke detectors). Better to have some input and control than have them do it in an unsafe manner behind your back. :?

I just put up a post (yesterday?) about a Basketball Camp at Colgate University moving the campers from dorms/suites into the fieldhouse one night due to impending weather that could have flooded the dorms. Same idea, assembly space used for sleeping.

Their poor history of working with you could prove to be an asset. Instead of more 'problems' in flat out denying the application, a co-operative working relationship could be built upon this somewhat unseemly foundation. Look at it as an opportunity to educate them about the importance of what you (we) do to provide life safety.

 

[earshavewalls]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

We are going to have to work with them. They WILL have sleepovers, so the only thing we can do, other than deny what the Mayor and City Manager want us to do, is just what you said.....make it a safe as we can.

They ARE providing smoke detection, plenty of light and ventilation, supposedly supervised by an adult staff. We are a little concerned that there might be some state laws and even possibly licensing that is required, but we are still researching that end.

It is going to happen, so all we can do is duck and cover and get as much safety as we can..........

Oh, and by the way, we do not go "out of our way" to catch anyone doing something they are not supposed to be doing. We are not building police. These people have operated illegally for a couple years and were 'busted' by their own customers who were concerned about the well being of their children, who were attending this gym. I refused to PC the project because I told my boss that I could not, in good concience, approve something that is in violation of our adopted laws. I don't write the laws, I just enforce what the legislative group has voted into law. Too bad this offends some, but that's the way I roll.

Thanks

 

[brudgers]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

If you're looking for license requirements and state laws which prohibit the sleep overs, then in my opinion you are looking to bust them.

If you cannot find anything obvious in the code, then issue the permit.

By the way, I don't recall anything in chapter 3 that prohibits sleeping in an assembly occupancy (I don't think the building code prohibits it in hospitals, prisons, or airports either).

 

[cda]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

City could possibly require either fire watch, or police security for a few sessions to see if there is a need for it.

see no licensing problems, but do not know your state

If the building is allowed to be used as an "A" to begin with, in away they are not doing much of an added hazard with the sleep over, it is still occupied, just a little sleeping going on.

Just because someone sleeps in thier office during the day, does that make it an added hazard, as lonag as they do not get caught???

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

My kids had these types of events for their gymnastics team, swim team and church group. In all those times when the group had a lock-in, the only thing that was ever required of them was to have identified adult leaders with phone numbers so that the police could reach them if necessary and so the adult leaders knew who to call in case of emergency. The police would notify the fire department if there was a medical or fire emergency.

btw: all the buildings where this happened were sprinklered.

 

[FM William Burns]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

We had a similar issue around five years ago with a group wanting to allow homeless and domestic violence civilians stay at churches for one week at a time (very political). We made sure the existing churches in our jurisdiction wanting to participate had compliant fire alarm and detection and those with sprinklers had QR (quick response) heads and adequate egress from all lodging areas. We required a documented opinion from city attorney (allowing it) for the property files and notifications to FD when and how many would be lodging including lodging locations, number of supervisors, ages and any physical limitations any may have.

 

[Alias]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

I don't see how you can stop them at this point with the building code. What I will suggest is that if this is in CA, you look at the state's Health & Safety Code, contact Envirnonmental Health, and check the City Code.

Some of my most difficult interpretations were settled using the H&S and city codes.

Sue, lost on the frontier of CA

 

[jim baird]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

As long as the pilot doesn't sleep in the cockpit...

 

[earshavewalls]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

We are not trying to "bust" these people....they have already been busted by their own customers. They did not get a single permit for any of the work they had done to outfit the warehouse they are using. When this was brought to our attention by a concerned parent, we followed up.......that's our job. So, along with all of the illegal construction, they were using a facility that was designed and built to be a warehouse.......not a gymnastics academy for children.

Now that we have gotten all of the work permitted and inspected (some had to be rebuilt to code), another customer brought the fact that they were having supervised sleepovers to the Council, not to the building department. The Council chambers were full when the hearing came to address this building in the first place and about half were in favor of legalizing (legitimizing) the building while the others were outraged at the fact that their kids were using a facility that had not been approved for the use.

This became quite political, as the owner has been in the area for several years and has produced some rather good gymnasts, but did not feel obligated to follow the laws regarding occupancy and construction. Now that we are in the middle of this, we are being told that we are bullies and that we have an agenda and that we are just 'out to get people'..........

We only want to do our jobs. The code is not clear on this issue of utilizing this type of a facility for sleepovers......we are charged with enforcing the laws adopted by our state and jurisdiction and we are only looking for a way to justify permitting this use. If it seems that we are looking for ways to NOT allow it, it is because we have to play 'Devil's Advocate' when researching these things.

We ARE permitting this use and we are making certain that all necessary steps are taken by the owner of the facility to assure the safety of the children, which is our main concern at this point.

This use will be by special permission and documented. They will have a minimum of two adult staff members for each sleepover and they already have smoke detection, fire sprinklers, and three clear means of egress directly to the exterior from the main room, where the sleepovers will take place.

We have done our job, and as usual we have been made to look like the villains..........same old, same old.

 

[brudgers]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

The code is not clear on this issue of utilizing this type of a facility for sleepovers.

The code is very clear.

It does not prohibit sleep-overs.

 

[JBI]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

Wayne -

Code Enforcement is a lot like cooking in a commercial kitchen on a summer night. It gets really, really hot sometimes. As the saying goes, "If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen". Yes, your office is always going to be the villains. I have maintained for years that the Building Department/Code Enforcement Office is the bastard stepchild of any local government - nobody wants us, but everybody has to have us. :roll: We work for the most invasive branch of government there is; Cops get to tell you (generally) how to behave in public whereas we get to tell people what they can and can't do on their own property. That's pretty damn invasive.

I would suggest that a spokesman for your department make a very public statement, at a council meeting, that YOUR office did NOT create the problem AND that your office is doing everything in its' power to ensure the safety of those using the facility.

As a resident and/or taxpayer, I would be satisfied with a clear explanation of how this happened and what is being done to rectify the situation. Regrettably, few if any will truly understand. But that's the price we pay for 'fame, fortune and glory', right? :?

 

[Yikes]

Re: A-3 wants to have sleep overs

I assume the sleepovers are "once in a while", not a regular use of the facility. I have sen this happen a lot in gymnaisum :

1. A church "lockdown"

2. All night fundraisers (I'll sit in this rocking chair all night to raise money for ___.)

3. Visiting sports teams for other schools, who need a place to stay for the evening.

4. Red Cross / emergency evacuation centers / emergency cold shelters for the homeless.

Heck, even every kindergarten classroom has a nap time!

In almost all these situations, there is an adult awake and on active supervision. Trust me, the bigger concern is not what happens while they're asleep, but what mischief will happen if they DON'T get to sleep... hence the need for chaperones, etc.

Are there any provisions in your municipal code or in your state code for "temporary" structures or uses? Is this the kind of issue that can be referred over to the fire and police officials as a "special event" situation, instead of being referred to the building department?