Accessibility postings

[Sifu]

I value the input, I might not agree all the time but I always end up leaving with more info than I came with. Sometimes I may have to wade through the tall grass to get to the info but that too usually gives me more information. Even if you quit posting, I'll still be asking the questions. The question is, who do we want answering them?

 

[jar546]

I am going to remind everyone again that this law IS in effect and has been for 20 years. Those that oppose it or don't agree with all of it had 20 years to get it changed by lobbying their congressmen and senators. It is, therefore in effect whether we like what it has been causing litigation wise and I don't see or know of any plans to change it anytime soon at the federal level.

So you can second guess the "real stories" or intent or whatever you want, BUT, with a reactive law that is POORLY enforced at a local level, this is what you end up with, like it or not. I am not saying all of the litigation is right or wrong but it is the only method to finally force compliance on those that have resisted through intent or ignorance for 20 years. In addition, there area a lot of non-compliant "mom & pop" type businesses that make loads of cash and are living very well off at the expense of non-compliance.

You don't like it? Then do something to change it. There are talkers and there are doers.

 

[mtlogcabin]

I am going to remind everyone again that this law IS in effect and has been for 20 years

There are literally 100's of laws on the books that government has ignored or chosen not to enforce but I will not name them because the administrator has asked to keep politics off of the forum.

 

[conarb]

I am going to remind everyone again that this law IS in effect and has been for 20 years. Those that oppose it or don't agree with all of it had 20 years to get it changed by lobbying their congressmen and senators. It is, therefore in effect whether we like what it has been causing litigation wise and I don't see or know of any plans to change it anytime soon at the federal level.So you can second guess the "real stories" or intent or whatever you want, BUT, with a reactive law that is POORLY enforced at a local level, this is what you end up with, like it or not. I am not saying all of the litigation is right or wrong but it is the only method to finally force compliance on those that have resisted through intent or ignorance for 20 years. In addition, there area a lot of non-compliant "mom & pop" type businesses that make loads of cash and are living very well off at the expense of non-compliance.

You don't like it? Then do something to change it. There are talkers and there are doers.

I would like to remind you that you cannot enforce the ADA, you can only enforce state statutes or local ordinances, if you are enforcing ADA even in a state with a similar statute you are violating ADA.

The enforcement of state codes is the responsibility of state or local officials – usually through plan reviews and building inspections. The ADA relies on the traditional method of civil rights enforcement through litigation in federal courts. Local officials do not have the authority to enforce the ADA on behalf of the federal government.¹

I've looked but can't find the names of the states, if any other than California, that have their own statutes purporting to enforce the ADA law.

¹ http://www.ada.gov/certcode.htm

 

[jar546]

I would like to remind you that you cannot enforce the ADA, you can only enforce state statutes or local ordinances, if you are enforcing ADA even in a state with a similar statute you are violating ADA. I've looked but can't find the names of the states, if any other than California, that have their own statutes purporting to enforce the ADA law.

¹ http://www.ada.gov/certcode.htm

It is poorly enforced in states and areas that did not adopt it separately for them to enforce it. I am fully aware it is a reactive law with zero enforcement by local officials but many states and regions have adopted it separately. Regardless, it is still a problem.

 

[conarb]

It is poorly enforced in states and areas that did not adopt it separately for them to enforce it. I am fully aware it is a reactive law with zero enforcement by local officials but many states and regions have adopted it separately. Regardless, it is still a problem.

The law says that it is illegal to enforce it if it is not codified, the law itself is not a problem, other than the private right of enforcement, the problem is the absurd regulations as adopted to interpret the law.

 

[mtlogcabin]

[h=1]Department of Justice ADA Responsibilities:

ADA Certification of State and Local Accessibility Requirements[/h]

The ADA specifically recognizes the importance of eliminating structural and architectural barriers by requiring all new or altered facilities subject to the ADA to be readily accessible to and usable by people with disabilities. Covered entities must comply with the Department's ADA regulations, including the ADA Standards for Accessible Design.

Facilities that must comply with the ADA Standards may also be required to comply with accessibility requirements established under state or local laws. There are thousands of jurisdictions in the United States that adopt or enforce building codes, some of which also include accessibility requirements. Although many state codes are based on national models, there can be significant variations among the state and local code requirements. Design and construction under state and local codes complies with the ADA only when the codes provide accessibility that equals or exceeds the ADA requirements. When these laws are inconsistent, the burden falls on building owners and design professionals to ensure compliance with both federal and state laws.

The enforcement of state codes is the responsibility of state or local officials – usually through plan reviews and building inspections. The ADA relies on the traditional method of civil rights enforcement through litigation in federal courts. Local officials do not have the authority to enforce the ADA on behalf of the federal government.

In an effort both to facilitate compliance with all applicable laws and to mitigate the tension between federal and state enforcement processes, the ADA authorizes the Department of Justice, upon request of state or local officials, to certify that state or local accessibility laws meet or exceed the requirements of the ADA. Certification bridges the gap between the federal and state enforcement processes. The certification process neither delegates ADA enforcement authority to the states nor eliminates an individual's right to seek relief through the federal courts. However, effective enforcement of a certified code can mitigate the need for federal enforcement by ensuring that new or altered buildings are accessible. This process gives building owners and design professionals some assurance in advance of construction that the ADA requirements will be satisfied. And, if a lawsuit is filed, compliance with a certified code may be offered as rebuttable evidence of compliance with the ADA.

[h=1]http://www.ada.gov/certcode.htm[/h]

 

[mtlogcabin]

[h=4]Readily Achievable Barrier Removal [/h]The ADA requires that small businesses remove architectural barriers in existing facilities when it is "readily achievable" to do so. Readily achievable means "easily accomplishable without much difficulty or expense." This requirement is based on the size and resources of a business. So, businesses with more resources are expected to remove more barriers than businesses with fewer resources.

Readily achievable barrier removal may include providing an accessible route from a parking lot to the business's entrance, installing an entrance ramp, widening a doorway, installing accessible door hardware, repositioning shelves, or moving tables, chairs, display racks, vending machines, or other furniture. When removing barriers, businesses are required to comply with the Standards to the extent possible. For example, where there is not enough space to install a ramp with a slope that complies with the Standards, a business may install a ramp with a slightly steeper slope. However, any deviation from the Standards must not pose a significant safety risk.

Even the feds agree that cost to the business should be considered based on the financial ability of the business.

Achieving accessibility in existing buildings is not black and white nor because it has been the law for 20 years. A building owner could have had a barrier removal plan that is expected to take 25 years to complete and he is behind 4 years because of the economy or other financial hardship.

Yes sometimes the plans get ignored and put on the back burner but again that is the feds responsibility to achieve compliance

 

[jar546]

If the ADA language is clear about the requirements based on size and resources of a business, why don't more defendants use this to their advantage? After all it is often a court that is making a legal decision argued by the attorneys.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Maybe they do and we don't hear about the ones the DOJ loose only the ones they are successful at.

Maybe just maybe when the DOJ investigate they actually review the facts and never take that business to court because the owners did all they could financially afford over the years to provide barrier removal.

 

[JPohling]

Brent- Not sure where you got that idea, but its true that I have no real interest in discussing the shortcomings of a law. If that is what you would like to do it would be great if it was confined to a single thread with that as the intention of the thread rather than having this discussion instigated in many threads that really contribute no value to the thread.

 

[kilitact]

Without discussion there would be no change. We would still be in the dark ages.

 

[mark handler]

Repeating exactly the same argument over and over expecting a different outcome, can become even more unproductive. And there will be a new dark age because they are not learning anything.

 

[JPohling]

pretty sure that is the definition of insanity

 

[conarb]

Many businesses in San Francisco have been shut down by the rolling blackmailers, Chinatown was hit the worst with many businesses were over 150 years old and barely 10' wide with stairways going up, one of the worst cases was Sam Wo's, we used to go to San Francisco just to eat their sizzling rice soup. They said it would take $200,000 to comply with ADA, I don't see how they could have done it for any amount of money, in this video note the steep stairway as you enter, the kitchen was downstairs, the dining room up those steep stairs with a dumb waiter next to the stairs constantly pulling food up to the dining room


[video=youtube;Pnrs6Hzp6Kg]

 

[mjesse]

Many businesses in San Francisco have been shut down by the rolling blackmailers, Chinatown was hit the worst with many businesses were over 150 years old and barely 10' wide with stairways going up, one of the worst cases was Sam Wo's, we used to go to San Francisco just to eat their sizzling rice soup. They said it would take $200,000 to comply with ADA, I don't see how they could have done it for any amount of money, in this video note the steep stairway as you enter, the kitchen was downstairs, the dining room up those steep stairs with a dumb waiter next to the stairs constantly pulling food up to the dining room
[video=youtube;Pnrs6Hzp6Kg]

A damn shame.

But the others will say "They've had 110 years to make it right. No sympathy"

 

[tmurray]

Maybe they do and we don't hear about the ones the DOJ loose only the ones they are successful at.Maybe just maybe when the DOJ investigate they actually review the facts and never take that business to court because the owners did all they could financially afford over the years to provide barrier removal.

In my experience, here in Canada, the media is quick to jump on the government beating bandwagon. The media panders to the general population that thinks all government employees are making big bucks leaning on shovels and playing minesweeper on their computers. It would be typical of the media to point out the occasions where the government just shut down businesses, and not the times when a reasonable person went in to evaluate and worked with the business to make them as accommodating as possible. People don't want to watch people being reasonable on tv. They want to watch disasters that make them feel better about their own lives. Look at the recent crop of "reality" tv.

Fair and balanced reporting is dead and we all killed it.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Repeating exactly the same argument over and over expecting a different outcome, can become even more unproductive. And there will be a new dark age because they are not learning anything.

Talking to yourself?

Brent

 

[MASSDRIVER]

the occasions where the government just shut down businesses, and not the times when a reasonable person went in to evaluate and worked with the business to make them as accommodating as possible.

The most frightening thing in the world is a government agent showing up at your door saying "I'm here to help. "

Paraphrased from Ronald Reagan.

Brent.

P.s. My lovely wife works for the government. I am entitled to comment.

Brent

 

[mark handler]

Talking to yourself? Brent

ad hominem

 

[jar546]

Many businesses in San Francisco have been shut down by the rolling blackmailers, Chinatown was hit the worst with many businesses were over 150 years old and barely 10' wide with stairways going up, one of the worst cases was Sam Wo's, we used to go to San Francisco just to eat their sizzling rice soup. They said it would take $200,000 to comply with ADA, I don't see how they could have done it for any amount of money, in this video note the steep stairway as you enter, the kitchen was downstairs, the dining room up those steep stairs with a dumb waiter next to the stairs constantly pulling food up to the dining room
[video=youtube;Pnrs6Hzp6Kg]

The report said it was closing for "health and safety issues" and at no point did I hear anything about ADA although it may have been part of the issue. Health and safety does not equate to ADA problems so I would like to know what the point of this post was?

I see a business that failed to maintain a safe and healthy environment and won't let my heartstrings be pulled to project the real issue of failure to invest in the future of your business by routine maintenance and upkeep.

 

[conarb]

It was in the Chronicle along with other Chinatown businesses shutting down because of ADA. It started with ADA, went to the building department and earthquake, the health department. If you doubt it just look at that stairway right at the front door, that is the only way up to the dining room, the entire lower level was kitchen.

It was going to take an estimated $300k to bring the building up to modern code. Since Sam Wo did not own the property of 813 Washington Street, negotiation was needed with the landlord to split the cost. It came down to Sam Wo to fork out about $200k and the building owner about $100k to fix up the place. (I know many of you thought it was a simple, “hosing down the place with some volunteers to get it spanking clean and ta-da! Reopen!” No. It was not as simple as that and again, it wasn’t due to health code violations that shut us down, it was the building code. Yes. Believe it. Anyway…)¹

ADA is in the building code along with structural requirements. I've earthquake proofed several San Francisco buildings and that building could be done easily with a steel frame, especially as narrow as it is, but getting access from the sloping sidewalk to an elevator at the entrance would be very difficult. I think the only way to do is to gut the building, install the footings and steel frame, then put the dining room downstairs and the kitchen upstairs, a large ADA compliant elevator could be put in the back of the building for disabled employees that could serve as the dumb waiter. I do red iron frames on houses and even additions now View attachment 2192After Chinatown they hit the Mission District:

The Mission Merchants’ agenda lists meeting with mayoral candidate Joanna Rees, and talks of making Valencia Street the “culinary fast lane of the West Coast.” However, the business owners present at the Tuesday meeting only want to talk about one thing: an increasing number of lawsuits for violations of the Americans with Disabilities Act by what they call “serial litigators.” “There’s a group of predatory lawyers that use the law to their advantage and target small businesses, especially restaurants owned by minorities,” says Regina Dick-Endrizzi, executive director of the city’s Small Business Commission. The Americans with Disabilities Act is a civil rights law enacted in 1990. It prohibits discrimination based on disability and requires that buildings be accessible to people with disabilities. A revised version of the law took effect in March 2011. A series of complaints hit Mission Street businesses six or seven months ago, and now they’re back, Dick-Endrizzi says. Restaurants are especially targeted, she added, because there’s more money to be made. Those attending today’s meeting at Garçon appear to know this. Fear is in the air. No one wants their establishment named in an article about the ADA.²

¹ http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2013/09/03/sam-wo-seeks-a-new-location-amidst-uncertainty-with-historic-chinatown-address/² http://missionlocal.org/2011/08/business-owners-fear-%E2%80%9Cdrive-by%E2%80%9D-ada-lawsuits/View attachment 959

View attachment 959

/monthly_2013_03/2342.jpg.05597bf7b86d50c328f964748845ed28.jpg

 

[mark handler]

You are right Jeff,

The owner stated "... that the three-story restaurant has been having problems with the fire department and the kitchen is too old, too. He says that he won’t reopen, at 813 Washington..." http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2012/04/19/chinatown-institution-sam-wo-is-closing/

Nothing about ADA or any lawsuits.

Once again false information, disciminated as facts.

 

[jar546]

The building had no walls and was sandwiched between the exterior walls of 2 other buildings. It was an alley way. The renovation costs were structural in nature and of course would have resulted in ADA upgrades as well IF they decided to structurally take care of a building in an earthquake zone. Yeah, they really need tons of people on the 2nd floor during an earthquake. Again, misleading information skewed designed to pull heart strings due to nostalgia. Everything eventually ends and structures don't last forever, especially one that is that old and was a converted alley way. It was going to be a sad story at 100 years or 200 years but eventually it was going to end regardless.