Accessible Service Counter

[incognito]

I believe if it is a counter in which they will be writing checks maximum height is 34". At least that is how I interpret the 2010 regs.

 

[rooster]

What ADA are you looking at?Are you looking at the 2010 ADASAD or the 2004 ADAAG? Or the actual text of the ADA in the Federal Register?

Are you plan checking this or designing this counter?

This was the ADA I was looking at: http://www.access-board.gov/ada-aba/ada-standards-doj.cfm#built-in

And of course I was looking at ANSI 2003 also.

I am looking at the counter from the eyes of the designer, and I'm looking at it in the case of New Construction.

I typically design every accessible service counter 3'wide, but recently I saw a boiler plate kind of response from a plan checker that says, "This portion [accessible service counter] shall be at least as wide as the ambulatory teller windows, without being required to be greater than 36" in width."

Now I know this is the plan checker's interpretation, but it got me thinking and looking harder at ANSI 904, which was the plan checker's reference. Also, this plan checker is VERY thorough in regards to accessiblility, so I thought it was at least something to look into.

I want to make clear that I'm not trying to skirt any requirements by asking this question, I'm merely trying to get a grip on the intent...an intent that I have perhaps misunderstood.

 

[Big Mac]

Mark - I am a bit confused by your statement that "some jurisdictions" have codified it. I must admit I am also a bit confused by those that apparently feel that if every specific section of the ICC A117.1 Section is referenced by the building code, that it doesn't apply.

Section 1101.2 of the 2009 International Building Code (as well as the international codes before it) states "Buildings and facilities SHALL be designed and constructed in accordance with this code and ICC A117.1." That language doesn't suggest to me that there is an option whether you enforce the ANSI Standard or not, assuming that you have adopted the IBC, unless of course you specifically remove it in the adoption process.

Therre is no language included there that would indicate portions of the ICC Standard could be ignored. Are you trying to say that there are jurisdictions out there that are not enforcing the IBC?

 

[mark handler]

mark - i am a bit confused by your statement that "some jurisdictions" have codified it. I must admit i am also a bit confused by those that apparently feel that if every specific section of the icc a117.1 section is referenced by the building code, that it doesn't apply.Section 1101.2 of the 2009 international building code (as well as the international codes before it) states "buildings and facilities shall be designed and constructed in accordance with this code and icc a117.1." that language doesn't suggest to me that there is an option whether you enforce the ansi standard or not, assuming that you have adopted the ibc, unless of course you specifically remove it in the adoption process.

Therre is no language included there that would indicate portions of the icc standard could be ignored. Are you trying to say that there are jurisdictions out there that are not enforcing the ibc?

some states do not use the ansi 117 at all, some have adoped thir own standards some have adopted the adasad

ansi is not the all inclusive standard

 

[mark handler]

This was the ADA I was looking at: http://www.access-board.gov/ada-aba/ada-standards-doj.cfm#built-inAnd of course I was looking at ANSI 2003 also.

I am looking at the counter from the eyes of the designer, and I'm looking at it in the case of New Construction.

I typically design every accessible service counter 3'wide, but recently I saw a boiler plate kind of response from a plan checker that says, "This portion [accessible service counter] shall be at least as wide as the ambulatory teller windows, without being required to be greater than 36" in width."

Now I know this is the plan checker's interpretation, but it got me thinking and looking harder at ANSI 904, which was the plan checker's reference. Also, this plan checker is VERY thorough in regards to accessiblility, so I thought it was at least something to look into.

I want to make clear that I'm not trying to skirt any requirements by asking this question, I'm merely trying to get a grip on the intent...an intent that I have perhaps misunderstood.

Relook at what you directed us to :

904.4 Sales and Service Counters. Sales counters and service counters shall comply with 904.4.1 or 904.4.2. The accessible portion of the counter top shall extend the same depth as the sales or service counter top.

EXCEPTION: In alterations, when the provision of a counter complying with 904.4 would result in a reduction of the number of existing counters at work stations or a reduction of the number of existing mail boxes, the counter shall be permitted to have a portion which is 24 inches (610 mm) long minimum complying with 904.4.1 provided that the required clear floor or ground space is centered on the accessible length of the counter.

 

[rooster]

Relook at what you directed us to :904.4 Sales and Service Counters. Sales counters and service counters shall comply with 904.4.1 or 904.4.2. The accessible portion of the counter top shall extend the same depth as the sales or service counter top.

EXCEPTION: In alterations, when the provision of a counter complying with 904.4 would result in a reduction of the number of existing counters at work stations or a reduction of the number of existing mail boxes, the counter shall be permitted to have a portion which is 24 inches (610 mm) long minimum complying with 904.4.1 provided that the required clear floor or ground space is centered on the accessible length of the counter.

This would be a project in PA, by the way. And to answer another question you had, this is moot I suppose because the counter has already been designed 36"w. More than anything I was looking for clarification on something I might have misinterpretted.

I must admit I looked past the section you quoted and was actually looking at this:

904.4.1 Parallel Approach. A portion of the counter surface that is 36 inches (915 mm) long minimum and 36 inches (915 mm) high maximum above the finish floor shall be provided. A clear floor or ground space complying with 305 shall be positioned for a parallel approach adjacent to the 36 inch (915 mm) minimum length of counter.

EXCEPTION: Where the provided counter surface is less than 36 inches (915 mm) long, the entire counter surface shall be 36 inches (915 mm) high maximum above the finish floor.

What I find goofy about this whole thing is that what you quoted basically says that if it doesn't comply with 904.4.1 or 904.4.2 then you may have a 24" accessible counter. BUT I can have a 24"w counter that complies with 904.4.1 according to the exception of 904.4.1 (where it says nothing about alterations).

I'm not trying to grasp at straws. It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It just seems odd that 904.4.1 includes that exception at all, just like I think it's odd that ANSI 2003 904.3.1 includes the same language, when all they had to say was 36" MIN

 

[rooster]

Relook at what you directed us to :904.4 Sales and Service Counters. Sales counters and service counters shall comply with 904.4.1 or 904.4.2. The accessible portion of the counter top shall extend the same depth as the sales or service counter top.

EXCEPTION: In alterations, when the provision of a counter complying with 904.4 would result in a reduction of the number of existing counters at work stations or a reduction of the number of existing mail boxes, the counter shall be permitted to have a portion which is 24 inches (610 mm) long minimum complying with 904.4.1 provided that the required clear floor or ground space is centered on the accessible length of the counter.

This would be a project in PA, by the way. And to answer another question you had, this is moot I suppose because the counter has already been designed 36"w. More than anything I was looking for clarification on something I might have misinterpretted.

I must admit I looked past the section you quoted and was actually looking at this:

904.4.1 Parallel Approach. A portion of the counter surface that is 36 inches (915 mm) long minimum and 36 inches (915 mm) high maximum above the finish floor shall be provided. A clear floor or ground space complying with 305 shall be positioned for a parallel approach adjacent to the 36 inch (915 mm) minimum length of counter.

EXCEPTION: Where the provided counter surface is less than 36 inches (915 mm) long, the entire counter surface shall be 36 inches (915 mm) high maximum above the finish floor.

What I find goofy about this whole thing is that what you quoted basically says that if it doesn't comply with 904.4.1 or 904.4.2 then you may have a 24" accessible counter. BUT I can have a 24"w counter that complies with 904.4.1 according to the exception of 904.4.1 (where it says nothing about alterations).

I'm not trying to grasp at straws. It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. It just seems odd that 904.4.1 includes that exception at all, just like I think it's odd that ANSI 2003 904.3.1 includes the same language, when all they had to say was 36" MIN

 

[mark handler]

Acording to the ADASAD

Is this an alteration of an exising Building?

If yes, the minimum counter width is twenty-four inches.

If no, it is new construction the counter is thirty six inches

That's it. Stop thinking, that's not working for you. Stop thinking.

 

[Jim B]

In talking about this exact situation with the ICC and their accessibility specialist, it was stated by the ICC that the accessible portion does not need to be 36” in width if the ambulatory counters are not 36” in width.

In other words, if the ambulatory windows are 24” in width, then the accessible portion can be 24” in width as well, but a parallel approach would be needed since no knee and toe clearance can be provided

I believe this meets the requirement if ANSI A117.1- 2003, 904.3.1. I am located in Pennsylvania and have used this same interpretation

 

[rooster]

In talking about this exact situation with the ICC and their accessibility specialist, it was stated by the ICC that the accessible portion does not need to be 36” in width if the ambulatory counters are not 36” in width.In other words, if the ambulatory windows are 24” in width, then the accessible portion can be 24” in width as well, but a parallel approach would be needed since no knee and toe clearance can be provided

I believe this meets the requirement if ANSI A117.1- 2003, 904.3.1. I am located in Pennsylvania and have used this same interpretation

Thanks for the reply Jim B. This is the interpretation I've been coming to. More and more it seems to make sense that the windows could be similar in width and as much as I look for the sacrifice in accessibility, I don't see it. It seems like the crucial elements would be the clear floor space and the height of the counter. It's meant for transaction.

Sorry for beating the proverbial dead horse, Mark. I can be like that some time.

 

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