ADA Door - Knob on Push Side

[lukewarm_thots]

Hi,

I know door hardware must follow operable parts, try to use hardware that works with a closed fist, etc. But what if we want to use a dummy door knob that is on the push side? It seems kind of like a grey area since it's not actually operable. Maybe this also comes down to the inspector and jurisdiction.

This is for retail mall stores located. Let me know if I provided enough info.

 

[mark handler]

If it is a "push-door", why the knob?
Can the knob interfere with the push operation?

 

[Inspector Gift]

If it is a "push-door", why the knob?
Can the knob interfere with the push operation?

Mark makes a good point. I'd think the dummy door knob would cause confusion at the least. A push Plate on the interior side and a pull handle on the outside would seem better.

 

[lukewarm_thots]

I have no idea. It's coming from our designers in Europe, who always seem to find these annoying grey areas. I don't see why it would interfere with push operation.

Here is the knob they are proposing:

door knob / 6a Architects

 

[lukewarm_thots]

Mark makes a good point. I'd think the dummy door knob would cause confusion at the least. A push Plate on the interior side and a pull handle on the outside would seem better.

Right, it's the confusion point that I plan on using to dissuade the designers from going this route. I just wanted to see if this has ever come up to get all my facts together.

 

[mark handler]

If it interferes with the push operation, no.
How is it positioned on the door?
Is there a push plate?
is the knob in/on the push plate?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

If it is a dummy knob, then no operation is required from that side so there's no need for a lever handle. That said, IMHO it's a monumentally dumb idea to install a knob where you want people to push. As Inspector Gift commented, it's going to generate confusion.

 

[arwat23]

I'd just not have a knob if it serves no purpose at all. Eliminates all confusion.

But if you or the designer are dead set on having it, it sounds like it wouldn't be a accessibility issue. It's not an operable part, so those requirements don't necessarily apply.

 

[danSAA]

Ask on https://idighardware.com/

 

[JPohling]

I do not see any problem from an accessibility standpoint. it is like an applied decoration. why just one? fill the entire door surface above the 10" level?
Or put it on the hinge side if you really want some confusion.

 

[Yikes]

Hi,

I know door hardware must follow operable parts, try to use hardware that works with a closed fist, etc. But what if we want to use a dummy door knob that is on the push side? It seems kind of like a grey area since it's not actually operable. Maybe this also comes down to the inspector and jurisdiction.

This is for retail mall stores located. Let me know if I provided enough info.

Just to be totally clear, the proposed door either has no latch, or it has a "ball catch", correct?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Just to be totally clear, the proposed door either has no latch, or it has a "ball catch", correct?

View attachment 15199

I assumed the door in question has a standard lockset, with a conventional latch bolt, but just has dummy trim on the "push" side. Since that won't work on a door with two-way traffic, I took it to mean something like a closet door.

 

[jar546]

My thoughts FWIW:

1) The knob is NOT a violation. It does not require grasping and twisting. It is not even needed to operate the door. You can grasp and push but you don't have to grasp and twist. You can just push on the knob, or simply push on the door to open it. In no way is this a violation.

2) This can, however, confuse the operator and even frustrate them if they think they have to grasp and twist but don't push. I have used doors like this before, and they can be confusing. If I remember correctly, I found doors like this in Europe, where they have different standards and designs.

Overall, while I would not have the legal authority to prohibit it, I would express my opinion that it can be a potential problem and put that in writing.

 

[redeyedfly]

I assumed the door in question has a standard lockset, with a conventional latch bolt, but just has dummy trim on the "push" side. Since that won't work on a door with two-way traffic, I took it to mean something like a closet door.

Great for locking people in closets!

 

[BN4537]

Those European designers just thought it was funny to mess with you and all future users of that door.