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ADA Excuses

JPohling said:
because they didn't have their life sucked out of them dealing with accessibility issues...............but in all actuality both of those offices are staffed with young designers
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You got it right, but add all the other politically correct social engineering taught in our public universities for the whole answer. I've heard said that architecture is the greatest art, we seemed to be going in the right direction after WWII but somehow dropped back into the 19th century designing/building sealed up boxes to "save the planet" and all the poor and disadvantaged.

Mark keeps screaming "... it's Civil Rights", this year is the 50th anniversary of Lyndon Johnson's Civil Rights act, since we have lost our rights of free speech and freedom of association I can't even repeat what Johnson said when the law was passed, this was documented by FBI Agent Ronald Kessler who was assigned to the White House and Air Force One. The whole thing is political, Bush I signed the law granting quasi-suspect class status for the ADA law to buy votes.
 
Yes he does,

and FG "designs" 3 dimensional billboards as do many other architect/designers. What ever became of "Form" follows "Function"?

Architecture is supposed to based on a buildings plan conforming to its use.

FG fought the acoustic engineer of the Disney over the need for a shoebox as the optimum sound chamber. Drape it any way you want, he did; but don't alter the shoe box proportions.

Yes, his "sculptures" become civic draws by their dramatic contrasts to the status quo. Appropriate in certain instances but not all.

The present and next FLW will be seen as Santiago Calatrava. He has completed more and varied projects in less time and of larger scale then all of the architects you have mentioned.
 
ADAguy said:
Yes he does, A recent developmentand FG "designs" 3 dimensional billboards as do many other architect/designers. What ever became of "Form" follows "Function"?

Architecture is supposed to based on a buildings plan conforming to its use.

FG fought the acoustic engineer of the Disney over the need for a shoebox as the optimum sound chamber. Drape it any way you want, he did; but don't alter the shoe box proportions.

Yes, his "sculptures" become civic draws by their dramatic contrasts to the status quo. Appropriate in certain instances but not all.

The present and next FLW will be seen as Santiago Calatrava. He has completed more and varied projects in less time and of larger scale then all of the architects you have mentioned.
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Gehry is a brain up on nearly everyone.

As for scale and completion time, ask yourself "why"?

Freedom from burden will be your answer.

The Golden Gate Bridge, Hoover Dam, et al will be in the same catagory.

Brent.
 
Gehry is an "old" sculptur/architect who has infected too many generations of architects.

Like FLW his buildings leak. He leaves the details to staff.
 
In 1969 I flew to Rio and Brasilia to see the dramatic work of Oscar Niemeyer and other Brazilian architects, stairs without railings and all kinds of creative designs that could never be done under our regulation, we have put not only safety but commercial interests and political agenda ahead of creativity. I think a lot of this has to do with our insane egalitarianism, a cousin from Germany has to come to the United States on business, the last time he was here he told me that he drove from home to Budapest in his Mercedes averaging 200 kph (124 mph), slower cars stay right allowing more expensive cars to stay in the faster lanes. Here slow cars block fast cars, we even have to line up behind bicycles here slowing down commerce. Is it any wonder that Germany is dominating Europe now? I move over for Ferraris and Bentleys, but Toyotas and bicycles don't move over for me.
 
I you want to drive 200 move to Germany. We have equal rights here. Just because you drive an expensive car, in your case a hummer, does not mean i need to pull over for you. Respect is earned not demanded.
 
mark handler said:
I you want to drive 200 move to Germany. We have equal rights here. Just because you drive an expensive car, in your case a hummer, does not mean i need to pull over for you. Respect is earned not demanded.
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If we have equal rights why are some classes of people given special rights?
 
Are you talking about driving 200?

Or are you talking about having equal access to goods and services? Equal rights.
 
The goal of the ADA. is to "provide equal opportunities for all Americans" -- not to "identify a particular group of individuals who are entitled to some kind of special treatment","special class" or "preferential treatment".

Until we start thinking in the terms of inclusive or universal design, you will continue to think of them as special, not included.
 
Mark said:
The goal of the ADA. is to "provide equal opportunities for all Americans" -- not to "identify a particular group of individuals who are entitled to some kind of special treatment","special class" or "preferential treatment".
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At law the disabled are identified as a as a Suspect Class entitled to special treatment. A single individual can force a store owner to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars that he may not have or be able to obtain vastly deteriorating the store owner's life for the benefit of a few.

In the case above, as Hilary would say: "What, at this point, difference does it make?" Had there been no special parking and curb cut he may have had to park further away, push his walker further, lift it up a step at the curb, but the disabled seemed to make it around before ADA. There has never, to my knowledge, been a cost benefit analysis done to determine if there is any real value to these expensive, confusing, regulations. I bet the government has no idea the total costs of these laws, from what I've seen it has to be in the many billions. People are different, some are tall others are short, some are smart others are dumb, some are ambitious others are lazy. I recall the days when stores had "Help Wanted, No Irish Need Apply" signs in the windows, many business had signs "We reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone", now businesses, particularly restaurants, react in fear whenever someone comes in in a wheelchair, a person can bring a Pit Bull into a restaurant and if the restaurant has a "No Dogs Allowed" policy all the person with the dog has to say is "He's a Service Dog" (or cat or duck) and the restaurant can't ask one more question, even though others may leave out of fear.
 
mark handler said:
I you want to drive 200 move to Germany. We have equal rights here. Just because you drive an expensive car, in your case a hummer, does not mean i need to pull over for you. Respect is earned not demanded.
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You should write that 100 times on the blackboard tomorrow.

Brent.
 
MASSDRIVER said:
You should write that 100 times on the blackboard tomorrow.Brent.
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No I will start with the BUISNESS AND PROFESSIONs code

I have Never asked for it or expected it from you nor will I never give it to you
 
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mark handler said:
No I will start with the BUISNESS AND PROFESSIONs codeI have Never asked for it or expected it from you nor will I never give it to you
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The WHAT? Hands shakey?

Say what you want to say, I know what your are getting at. Don't be mealy mouthed.

Tell these fine folks what you got.

Then get ready.

You know nothing about me. Boy.

Brent.
 
conarb said:
An interesting observation here is that the strongest advocates of ADA here are architects, Mark Handler, ADA Guy, and MSRadell are all architects.
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I resent that! I'm an engineer, not an architect. Many can we actually have to work for a living.:mrgreen:

I also happen to be disabled and confined to a wheelchair!
 
Msradell said:
I resent that! I'm an engineer, not an architect. Many can we actually have to work for a living.:mrgreen:I also happen to be disabled and confined to a wheelchair!
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Sorry about that, I could have sworn that I looked at your profile long ago and it said architect. I just looked again and it says project engineer now.

BTW, in 1973 I was building a timber framed home in the Orinda Country Club cantilevered over a creek (when Fish and Game didn't have regulations interfering with building near creeks), on the other side of the creek a very interesting home was going up, it was a series of white stucco pavilions, it was interesting enough that I went over there, the owner was there in a wheelchair, he introduced himself as "Larry", I don't recall the last name.

About 15 years later I was talking to a friend who was a small builder, two of his sons had made it real well as tract builders, he told me that after they had worked for him a few years that he told them that he had taught them all he knew, he took them to meet the same Larry, Larry had been a very successful land developer and took young men under his wing and taught them them the tricks of buying land and getting it approved for development. Apparently Larry had been in a wheelchair most, it not all, of his life and his disability didn't keep him from being successful and making a lot of money.
 
mark handler said:
The goal of the ADA. is to "provide equal opportunities for all Americans" Until we start thinking in the terms of inclusive or universal design, you will continue to think of them as special, not included.
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I attended a chapter 11B class today. The instructor was a guy named Mark Wood. Quite often during the class, his answer to a question was, "Does that sound inclusive?"

If you think of accessibility laws as not giving any special privilege to any select group, but rather, simply including the disadvantaged in everyday life; it all seems logical.

Then he showed a slide of a wheel chair that can climb a mountain and I came back to my senses. I think that most people wouldn't argue against the merits of ADA but many think society went about it all wrong.
 
There is a sociological danger too that has to be part of the dialog. At some point you can convince people they have no access if it is not cogent with some approved standard. In other words, you train a group, the disabled, that they cannot access a place, only because it is labeled as not to standard. Is it REALLY inaccessible, or just somewhat difficult to access? Are there actual barriers or just annoyances.

If you spend anytime in a larger urban location, San Francisco is what I'm familiar with, you quickly find out that most everything is up at least one flight of stairs, yet being handicapped is not a new development. You see the same old people everyday with canes and walkers, blind, missing an arm...the same ones have to live up stairs, navigate tight spaces, deal with hills and slopes, etc.

What we as a society do not want to do is weaken our populace, and weaken our disabled EVEN FURTHER, by convincing them they only survive by the grace given by a bureaucrat.

We can see that behavior first hand right now as there is no problem with some people being on unemployment for 2 years strait, and when that runs out miraculously becoming disabled. Some to avoid work, some because no work is available. Any shame or unacceptance of being out of work is being bred out of us. The same will be true of the disabled expectations of the world if there is not some sort of pushback.

Msradell, If you don't mind, I have a question for you. Non-confrontational, just because I'm ignorant. What would you describe, because you are using a wheelchair, as a true barrier to you? How about things that are just an annoyance? Do you like those stupid yellow dots? :) Seriously, I'm not trying to set you up or anything.

Thanks,

Brent.
 
oh my! "The same will be true of the disabled expectations of the world if there is not some sort of pushback." please explain further your thoughts behind this statement.
 
First, look up Auburn ca. Do a street view walk around. Should that city be leveled and brought into compliance? If not, why not? Should the disabled expect that? Is it not discrimination to have such obvious barriers?

Brent.
 
MASSDRIVER said:
First, look up Auburn ca. Do a street view walk around. Should that city be leveled and brought into compliance? If not, why not? Should the disabled expect that? Is it not discrimination to have such obvious barriers?Brent.
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The Shaw building at 163 Sacramento Street looks to be built in 1997. Let's use that as an example...

https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&layer=c&z=17&iwloc=A&sll=38.894961,-121.078063&cbp=13,87.3,0,0,0&cbll=38.894961,-121.078080&q=163+sacramento+st.+auburn+ca&ei=92P-UtnWBcqCyQHUioDQDw&ved=0CCcQxB0wAA
 
mark handler said:
Read the code. It is addressed.
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Is it just this simple?

Section 35.151 of 28 CFR Part 35

§ 35.151 New construction and alterations.

(a) Design and construction.

(2) Exception for structural impracticability.

(i) Full compliance with the requirements of this section is not required where a

public entity can demonstrate that it is structurally impracticable to meet the

requirements.

If so, that's not the feeling I get from most of our discussions.
 
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