ADA Lawsuit

[Jobsaver]

To require a buisness to allow a disabled person to use a public accomidation, is is the law. You may define it as anything you want (ie; Tax) but it is the law, if you don't like it, change it. But until you do, you cant choose which part of the law you want to enforce, as you enforce the building code, you need to enforce chapter 11 of the code.Can't wait 'til you get a little older, have a disability, let's hear from you then......

I have, in an appropriate forum, discussed in plain language, that I believe civil ADA legislation is unjust law, and why.

Nobody is disputing the fact of the existance of the law. Nobody has attempted to define the law as a tax. These are examples of innuendo.

The last step of implying that a personal disability would change my viewpoint is a good example of fanaticism. Surely, a rational man in a reasoned debate would presume that I am in consideration of the likelihood of my own disability.

 

[Frank]

As always, a reasonable law has become unreasonable. You only need to leave interpretation of a law up to some nitwit, left-wing zeolot to have common sense and reasonable accomodation become draconian, overreaching govt. intrusian. When signed by Bush Sr., I do not believe that anyone would have foresaw that a business would have to relocate based on ADA alone.

The memorable moment of the Quayle-Gore Vice Presidential debate was when they both agreed that the ADA was a good thing and that with proper design it was not going to cost anybody anything.

After that if Al Gore says the sun is up, I put a hand on my wallet and then look out the window to check.

 

[mark handler]

Ewenme

T.S. Eliot, NICE

 

[mark handler]

nobody has attempted to define the law as a tax.

you did....

it is a law that taxes to benefit an exclusive few.

taxes (v): To make difficult or excessive demands on

 

[Frank]

I have, in an appropriate forum, discussed in plain language, that I believe civil ADA legislation is unjust law, and why..

The ADA legislation pretends that it is as easy to facilitate use and access by the disabled of whatever degree, as it is to remove a "No Coloreds Allowed" sign.

Unfortunately reality say it just aint so.

And as with many other rules and regulations the costs to a small business is not that much less than for a large business and has a very disproportionate cost impact.

Per the 2006 I-Codes

A 2000 sq ft small specialty shop with 10 parking spaces gets 1 HC space with 8 ft access aisle, 2 accessible bathrooms taking up 100 sq ft, 1 accessible checkout, and 2 accessible exits.

A 200 000 sq ft Wallyworld store with 1000 parking spaces gets 20 HC spaces that share acess aisles and most have 5 ft vs 8 ft aisles, 2 accessible toilet stalls and a family bathroom taking up 150 sq ft, 5 accessible checkouts, and 2 accessible exits.

20% of parking budget vs 2%, 5% of floor area for accessible bathrooms vs 0.075%, the checkout vs 5 of 25, both exits get ramps vs 2 of 4 or more.

The proportional impact on the little guy is over tenfold that on the Big Box

 

[Jobsaver]

Frank: good point. I would support a remedy that might allow an exception for smaller sized privately owned businesses, provided the businesses are not owned or leased by a governmental body.

MarK: Great example of using deception. Pretend you do not understand that one word can mean different things, and interchange according to your own purpose.

 

[mark handler]

Great example of using deception. Pretend you do not understand that one word can mean different things, and interchange according to your own purpose.

i THINK YOU DID A GREAT JOB OF THAT ALL BY YOUR SELF, NO HELP FROM ME NEEDED

 

[Jobsaver]

You may define it as anything you want (ie; Tax) but it is the law

After carefully reading these posts, and the Webster's, I concede that my use of the word, "taxing", may be causing part of the confusion. I did not mean it in the connotation of a governmental tax involving money, but as a verb, an act of making excessive demands upon another. Maybe it does mean the same thing?

 

[texasbo]

Just be happy it is, for the moment, limited to feigning confusion due to multiple definitions. It hasn't spiraled out of control to the point that the accessibility fanatics are calling you a racist because you think the law is unjust.

They will.

Thomas Jefferson hasn't even been invoked...

Edit: never mind...sigh.... I just didn't go back far enough in the thread. I love how every argument with some people always turns to racism, regardless of whether or not it has anything whatsoever to do with racism. Cheap, underhanded, unwarranted.

 

[tbz]

Can't wait 'til you get a little older, have a disability, let's hear from you then......

So Mark what do you consider your disability? I have 74% heart muscle loss and to walk more than a few 100 yards pretty much ends my day, not to mention even trying to climb stairs. I feel the law is incorrect.

..and totally legal in NY. Our zoning code eliminated discos and nightclubs with amortization.

Code:

In ordering the compulsory termination of a... nonconforming use... a definite and reasonable amortization period during which the nonconforming use use may continue while the investment value remaining after the date of the termination is amortized.

...

The right to maintain a nonconforming... nightclub... shall be terminated either upon the date that there is a change of ownership or operation...ADA is not alone...

Tim based on your post the termination is either upon change of ownership or operation. Thus a pre-existing small business that was in place prior to 1990 and has made no changes in either can continue. However, those same business are being sued weekly and that is were I find fault.

 

[TimNY]

Tim based on your post the termination is either upon change of ownership or operation. Thus a pre-existing small business that was in place prior to 1990 and has made no changes in either can continue. However, those same business are being sued weekly and that is were I find fault.

Based on the second paragraph, yes.

Based on the first paragraph, your business will be terminated whether or not you sell. The amortization concluded before I worked there, but I believe it was a couple of years. ADA was 20.

 

[mark handler]

http://www.ada.gov/taxincent.pdf

Internal Revenue Code, Section 190, businesses can take a business expense deduction of up to $15,000 per year for costs of removing barriers in facilities or vehicles.

The tax breaks have been available since the first signing....

MULTIPLY THAT OVER 20 YEARS THAT'S $300,000 OF IMPROVEMENTS, PER BUISNESS, SO FAR.

Stop the crocodile tears….

 

[mark handler]

Thus a pre-existing small business that was in place prior to 1990 and has made no changes in either can continue. However, those same business are being sued weekly and that is were I find fault.

ADA myths remain: there is no such thing as a grandfather clause in the ADA. .

 

[texasbo]

http://www.ada.gov/taxincent.pdfInternal Revenue Code, Section 190, businesses can take a business expense deduction of up to $15,000 per year for costs of removing barriers in facilities or vehicles.

The tax breaks have been available since the first signing....

MULTIPLY THAT OVER 20 YEARS THAT'S $300,000 OF IMPROVEMENTS, PER BUISNESS, SO FAR.

Stop the crocodile tears….

Well that's more like it; so it's not just the shop owner's cost of doing business, it's also the taxpayer's... That makes it all better.

 

[texasbo]

Complying with ADA is just a cost of doing business.

Ya, and in some parts of Jersey, paying Guido protection money is "just the cost of doing business". That doesn't make it right.

 

[texasbo]

Can't wait 'til you get a little older, have a disability, let's hear from you then......

Please spare us that worn out old argument.

Can't wait 'til you can't afford a vacation home in the Hamptons, let's hear from you then....

Can't wait 'til your kid that runs a 7 second forty doesn't make varsity wide receiver, let's hear from you then...

Shall I go on?

Everybody is entitled to a home in the Hamptons and to have their kid first string on varsity, right? I demand equality!

 

[brudgers]

Surely, a rational man in a reasoned debate would presume that I am in consideration of the likelihood of my own disability.

Should your position become reasoned, then perhaps such consideration will be due.

 

[brudgers]

The ADA legislation pretends that it is as easy to facilitate use and access by the disabled of whatever degree, as it is to remove a "No Coloreds Allowed" sign.Unfortunately reality say it just aint so.

And as with many other rules and regulations the costs to a small business is not that much less than for a large business and has a very disproportionate cost impact.

Per the 2006 I-Codes

A 2000 sq ft small specialty shop with 10 parking spaces gets 1 HC space with 8 ft access aisle, 2 accessible bathrooms taking up 100 sq ft, 1 accessible checkout, and 2 accessible exits.

A 200 000 sq ft Wallyworld store with 1000 parking spaces gets 20 HC spaces that share acess aisles and most have 5 ft vs 8 ft aisles, 2 accessible toilet stalls and a family bathroom taking up 150 sq ft, 5 accessible checkouts, and 2 accessible exits.

20% of parking budget vs 2%, 5% of floor area for accessible bathrooms vs 0.075%, the checkout vs 5 of 25, both exits get ramps vs 2 of 4 or more.

The proportional impact on the little guy is over tenfold that on the Big Box

Umm...people were killed trying to end racial discrimination.

ADA compliance is far simpler.

You just hire an architect and a contractor.

 

[brudgers]

ADA myths remain: there is no such thing as a grandfather clause in the ADA. .

Mark you are clearly mistaken.

Here is a link to pictures of ADA's grandfather:

grandpa.link

 

[texasbo]

Fixed it for you:

Umm...people were killed trying to end racial discrimination.ADA compliance is far more lucrative for architects and contractors.

Apparently, racial discrimination was a good tool for you to use as an irrelevant strawman in forum debates, but ADA, well, now there is the goose that laid the golden egg.

I'm sure those who suffered and died in civil rights struggles are real proud you're using their efforts as a pawn to try to make a point that has nothing to do with them.

 

[brudgers]

Apparently, racial discrimination was a good tool for you to use as an irrelevant strawman in forum debates, but ADA, well, now there is the goose that laid the golden egg.I'm sure those who suffered and died in civil rights struggles are real proud you're using their efforts as a pawn to try to make a point that has nothing to do with them.

I merely point out that the structure of the arguments against ADA could be used to rationalize forms of discrimination which are less politically correct.

 

[conarb]

California has a new law SB 1608, now instead of slimy lawyers profiting off the disabled and businesses we will have slimy architects and building inspectors racing to get CASp certification to use the disabled to profit off businesses, to say nothing of a whole new bureaucracy set up in a bankrupt state. I think I like it the old way better, let the slimy lawyers profit rather than slime ball architects and building departments.

Businesses should hire a CASp. A certified access specialist (CASp) is a person business owners can be assured has been tested and certified by the state as an expert in disability access laws. SB 1608 sets up a process whereby business owners can voluntarily hire a CASp to inspect their buildings to ensure compliance with disability access standards and obtain an inspection report as proof they did so. A link to a list of certified CASp inspectors is available at www.calchamber.com/ADA.

• Improved expertise in new construction and building inspections. For the first time, there will be minimum continuing education requirements for building inspectors and architects on disability access laws, to help reduce the problem of new construction failing to comply. Moreover, by July 2010, local building inspection offices will be required to have at least one CASp on staff, available to provide consultation. Eventually all permitting and plan checks must be CASp-inspected.
  

When: The continuing education requirement will apply to license renewals beginning July 1, 2009. A CASp should be on staff in building inspection offices by July 1, 2010.

• New state disability access commission part of the solution. SB 1608 created a new California Commission on Disability Access (CCDA), which will be a 17-member state advisory commission made up of legislative and gubernatorial appointees from both the disability and business communities. The commission will be assigned the task of evaluating and providing recommendations on further disability access issues having an impact on the disability and business communities.¹
  

¹ http://www.calchamber.com/Headlines/Pages/SB1608DisabilityAccessLawReformHowDoesItHelpBusinessOwners.aspx

 

[texasbo]

I merely point out that the structure of the arguments against ADA could be used to rationalize forms of discrimination which are less politically correct.

Yes, and I suppose you could use the structure of arguments against genocide to rationalize why you want to call in sick on a rainy day.

The problem is, it isn't rationalizing, it's sensationalizing, it adds a tone of hostility that isn't necessary, and most importantly, it compares apples to oranges.

 

[texasbo]

Complying with ADA is just a cost of doing business. Just like providing life-safety systems and off-street parking.And if you want to talk about unfunded government mandates, off-street parking is by far the most expensive ever created.

The difference is, life safety systems and off-street parking benefit the entire population, including the handicapped. Apparently you prefer laws that require the general public to pay ridiculous sums of money to create an elite class to those that are good for everyone?