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All doors out of a bldg required to be code compliant exits?

bill1952 said:
Anyone suggest what purposes a door, much like those intended for egress, is intended for if not for egress? As a designer, I can just see the building officials reaction to "that door is not intended for egress, it's only for ventilation or the view (in a warehouse) or for Uber eats deliveries. Would you allow key key deadbolts even?
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I did my internship with a local fire engineering firm. They are very reputable and work internationally. I was lucky to have the experience that I did there.

I remember one saying that they had was that the proper interpretation of any code provision was the least restrictive, reasonable interpretation.

When building officials reject a less restrictive, but reasonable interpretation of the code, they cease being a regulator enforcing the law and become an autocrat enforcing their preference.
 
tmurray said:
Here it is in the fire code. Basically, if it is signed as an exit it has to function as one.
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We don't use the IFC here unless the IBC section that sends us there, such as for high racks. So as an inspector I guess I can't make them take down any exit signs on non complying exit doors.
Do you make them take an exit sign down on an existing building that never had any exit doors that would comply with the latest code?
 
Rick18071 said:
We don't use the IFC here unless the IBC section that sends us there, such as for high racks. So as an inspector I guess I can't make them take down any exit signs on non complying exit doors.
Do you make them take an exit sign down on an existing building that never had any exit doors that would comply with the latest code?
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I should clarify, this is only an option where the number and location of "exits" are constructed in excess of the code.

The fire code states that exits must be provided in accordance with the code and any door signed as an exit shall function as an exit.

If the exits have never complied with the code (i.e. did not meet code when constructed), fire officials would order them to be brought to current code. If they met code when installed, but do not meet current code, it is really at their discretion, but they have largely shied away for this unless they note serious issues.

The real question is how existing exits can be brought up to current code based on all the limitations we see with existing buildings. Sometimes all you can do is make them better than what they are today.
 
tmurray said:
I did my internship with a local fire engineering firm. They are very reputable and work internationally. I was lucky to have the experience that I did there.

I remember one saying that they had was that the proper interpretation of any code provision was the least restrictive, reasonable interpretation.

When building officials reject a less restrictive, but reasonable interpretation of the code, they cease being a regulator enforcing the law and become an autocrat enforcing their preference.
Click to expand...
So ok to have a stair in a building with 8" treads and 10" risers if not required for nor intended for the means of egress?
 
bill1952 said:
So ok to have a stair in a building with 8" treads and 10" risers if not required for nor intended for the means of egress?
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No...Stairs do not have the same language

1011.1 General. Stairways serving occupied portions of a
building shall comply with the requirements of Sections
1011.2 through 1011.13.

1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements
of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system
shall meet the requirements of this section and Section
1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers
greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements
of this section.

See the difference? ;)
 
I looks like the code does not give me any power to make them take down an exit sign on a non conforming convenient door like a slider or a door that is screwed shut even in a brand new building (that already has the minimum complying exit doors). I think their should be a section to require this but I can't make one up.
 
This section...If you really need one

1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements
of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system
shall meet the requirements of this section and Section
1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers
greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements
of this section.
Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable
from the adjacent construction and finishes such that the
doors are easily recognizable as doors.
 
Rick18071 said:
I looks like the code does not give me any power to make them take down an exit sign on a non conforming convenient door like a slider or a door that is screwed shut even in a brand new building (that already has the minimum complying exit doors). I think their should be a section to require this but I can't make one up.
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I would think about this another way. If it is signed as an exit, one could conclude that it is intended for egress purposes and thus must comply. If you cite something like "convenience doors that are signed as an exit must function as an exit" many can read between the lines and see the other option is to just remove the sign.

What is that joke...

There are two types of people, those that can infer from incomplete data.
 
steveray said:
This section...If you really need one

1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements
of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system
shall meet the requirements of this section and Section
1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers
greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements
of this section.
Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable
from the adjacent construction and finishes such that the
doors are easily recognizable as doors.
Click to expand...
The doors that I am talking about are not a means of egress.
I need would need a section number to put in my report to make them take the exit sign down.
 
bill1952 said:
The basic issue is means of egress components in excess of what is required and whether they have to comply with the requirements for means of egress. Can a door in an exterior wall inswing, be less than minimum height and width, have no hardware to open it, or otherwise not comply with the requirements for a door in the means of egress? Can a stair in addition to all that are required for m.o.e. have 10" risers and no handrails? Can a non-required corridor be 30" wide? And for accessibility, if I add a door for convenience from room A to B, can it be inaccesible, requiring a person with a disability to take a much more circuitous route? Seems discrimatory. (And the concept in a theatre that if a non-disabled person can go from seat to stage without leaving the auditorium and stage, than a person with a disability should also be able to do that, and it's in the standards with words I drafted decades ago.)

The idea of "intended" use, that as one thing is not intended for m.o.e. is a big black hole. If I can evade code requirements by saying a door is not intended for egress, I can as easily claim a stair is not intended for egress, or a toilet not intended to or it's normal uses, or a big room in a school is not intended for assembly. And we all know how diligent owners are in applying for a permit for change of use.

And from the designer's view, look at how much time is saved if all m.o.e. components, required or in addition to what is required, comply with the m.o.e. requirements.
Click to expand...

There are best practices and those who chose to "only" adhere to min./max's. Specifics vs. prescriptive. Anyone can be sued for anything, you takes your chances.
 
Here is the commentary for that section:


SECTION 1010
DOORS, GATES AND TURNSTILES
1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements
of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system
shall meet the requirements of this section and Section
1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers
greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements
of this section.
Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable
from the adjacent construction and finishes such that the
doors are easily recognizable as doors. Mirrors or similar
reflecting materials shall not be used on means of egress
doors. Means of egress doors shall not be concealed by curtains,
drapes, decorations or similar materials.
The general requirements for doors are in this section
and the following subsections. The reference to Section
1022.2 is intended to emphasize that exterior exit
doors must lead to a route that will allow a path to a
public street or alley (see definition for “Public way”).
A door that is intended to be used for egress purposes,
even though that door may not be required by
the code, is also required to meet the requirements of
this section. An example may be an assembly occupancy
where four doors would be required to meet
the required capacity of the occupant load. But
assume the designer elects to provide six doors for
aesthetic reasons or occupant convenience. All six
doors must comply with the requirements of this section.
Doors need to be easily recognizable for immediate
use in an emergency condition. Thus, the code
specifies that doors are not to be hidden in such a
manner that a person would have trouble seeing
where to egress.
 
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my250r11 said:
Here is the commentary for that section:


SECTION 1010
DOORS, GATES AND TURNSTILES
1010.1 Doors. Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements
of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system
shall meet the requirements of this section and Section
1022.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers
greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements
of this section.
Means of egress doors shall be readily distinguishable
from the adjacent construction and finishes such that the
doors are easily recognizable as doors. Mirrors or similar
reflecting materials shall not be used on means of egress
doors. Means of egress doors shall not be concealed by curtains,
drapes, decorations or similar materials.
The general requirements for doors are in this section
and the following subsections. The reference to Section
1022.2 is intended to emphasize that exterior exit
doors must lead to a route that will allow a path to a
public street or alley (see definition for “Public way”).
A door that is intended to be used for egress purposes,
even though that door may not be required by
the code, is also required to meet the requirements of
this section. An example may be an assembly occupancy
where four doors would be required to meet
the required capacity of the occupant load. But
assume the designer elects to provide six doors for
aesthetic reasons or occupant convenience. All six
doors must comply with the requirements of this section.
Doors need to be easily recognizable for immediate
use in an emergency condition. Thus, the code
specifies that doors are not to be hidden in such a
manner that a person would have trouble seeing
where to egress.
Click to expand...


Like I said this door I'm talking about is not intended for a means of egress.
 
iirc, this began with doors to the exterior in a storage facility possibly. If they aren't intended for going in and out of the building, I have trouble imaging what they are for.
 
Exterior doors may lead to an outside area that will not lead to a public way or a safe dispersal area. Therefore they will not meet the code for an exit in a means of exit system since there is no exit discharge
 
If it went to such a courtyard without a path to the public way, wouldn't then need to be a means of egress door from the courtyard? Just exit sign if required for occupancy on outside? Maybe we some markings or signage inside to prevent blocking it?
 
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