All fire doors require automatic openers?

[teej]

I realize codes say fire doors are allowed to have an opening force greater than 5 lbs and even up to 15 lbs, but doesn't that trigger an automatic door opener? Interior or exterior door.
If an accessible path requires automatic opener for any door greater than 5 lbs opening force... therefore all fire doors on an accessible path must have automatic opener regardless of 15 lbs allowance. (Imagine individual offices served by a rated corridor.)
I don't believe they make a fire rated door than can be less than 5 lbs.

11B-404.2.9 Door and gate opening force. The force for pushing or pulling open a door or gate shall be as
follows:
1. Interior hinged doors and gates: 5 pounds (22.2 N) maximum.
2. Sliding or folding doors: 5 pounds (22.2 N) maximum.
3. Required fire doors: the minimum opening force allowable by the appropriate administrative authority, not to exceed 15 pounds (66.7 N).
4. Exterior hinged doors: 5 pounds (22.2 N) maximum.

 

[e hilton]

If you have an automatic opening door … more correctly called a door operator … what happens when power fails? Does the operator sense the power failure, then open the door and lock it open?

 

[RLGA]

Why would that trigger the need for an automatic opener? CBC Section 1.1.7.2 states "where a specific provision varies from a general provision, the specific provision shall apply."

The 15 lb for fire doors is more specific than the general 5 lb requirement for interior and exterior doors; thus, fire doors need only comply with the specific requirement for fire doors and not the general requirement for other doors.

 

[teej]

If you have an automatic opening door … more correctly called a door operator … what happens when power fails? Does the operator sense the power failure, then open the door and lock it open?

It's the same as any fire rated door with automatic power. They also have battery back-ups req'd. I am going more in the direction of power-assisted push plates.

 

[teej]

Why would that trigger the need for an automatic opener? CBC Section 1.1.7.2 states "where a specific provision varies from a general provision, the specific provision shall apply."

The 15 lb for fire doors is more specific than the general 5 lb requirement for interior and exterior doors; thus, fire doors need only comply with the specific requirement for fire doors and not the general requirement for other doors.

1.1.7.2 Does it really address this issue? It is kind of saying if we put something specific in the code then follow it.
So, have at it, put your 15 lb fire door in there, the code doesn't care, but don't call it compliant or say it is part of accessible path.
Item 3 in the code is only stating that the door is allowed to exist at 15 lbs. That is fine and no challenge there, (positive latching, smoke seal and all that). But,, that doesn't mean that it will be accessible for someone who cannot push over 5 lbs as the code already prescribes.
So in practicality, there accessible path just stopped at that fire door. The code doesn't need to state directly that it must have an automatic opener but in reality, if you want it to be on accessible path it has to have less than 5 lb "push plate", thus an automatic operator.
I am really thinking about the day to day use of the door and path, not in the event of a fire.
Simply put, how does a person who does not have ability for opening force greater than 5 lbs get into their office every morning without someone opening the fire doors for them?

Even the way it is physically placed within the code section 404.2.9 (3) is not treated like an exception, the way the "exception" that is stated immediately below it.
Example,
Exception: When, at a single location, one of every eight exterior door leafs, or fraction of eight, is a powered door, other exterior doors at the same location, serving the same interior space, may have a maximum opening force of 8.5 pounds (37.8 N). The powered leaf(s) shall be located closest to the accessible route.

 

[e hilton]

In my experience, fire doors are electrically held open, and they automatically close in an alarm condition. Do you need to have them closed all the time?

 

[teej]

Why would that trigger the need for an automatic opener? CBC Section 1.1.7.2 states "where a specific provision varies from a general provision, the specific provision shall apply."

The 15 lb for fire doors is more specific than the general 5 lb requirement for interior and exterior doors; thus, fire doors need only comply with the specific requirement for fire doors and not the general requirement for other doors.

Re-reading 1.1.7.2 you would be saying that the "general provision" of requiring 5 lbs for doors is now overridden by this specific provision that now allows 15 lbs.?

 

[teej]

In my experience, fire doors are electrically held open, and they automatically close in an alarm condition. Do you need to have them closed all the time?

Office doors. I think you are thinking of the fire area separation kind of fire door in a hospital corridor.
This is more like a school corridor with generally closed classroom doors.

 

[RLGA]

Re-reading 1.1.7.2 you would be saying that the "general provision" of requiring 5 lbs for doors is now overridden by this specific provision that now allows 15 lbs.?

Yes. That provision has been a staple in building codes for decades.

 

[Msradell]

Since local building code officials have no authority to enforce ADA requirements in most places it seems like the 15 lb force would be acceptable. This being said while it may be acceptable fires a code goes it's certainly not acceptable to those with disabilities go. It's probably a call that the local building officials are going to have to make for your or any other applications.

 

[teej]

Yes. That provision has been a staple in building codes for decades.

But still, isn't it leaving the people with less than 5 lb ability out in the corridor asking for help? Their independence is sacrificed for the life and safety that the rest of building occupants get from fire doors.
Several years ago, I recall reading a supplementary interpretations or technical guidance document caveat that stated the ADA was never intended to correct all conditions that a human experiences and that their goal was merely to be as inclusive as possible without overburdening cultural conditions or the built environment.
Does anyone recall seeing that kind of commentary from Access Board or DOJ?

I think another problem I had in reading code in general is the context of what the code section is there for. It is defining what the code is willing to accept and the limits of what they consider the allowable "opening force" for fire doors ("not to EXCEED 15 lbs").
"The force for pushing or pulling open a door or gate SHALL be as follows:"
Not "should", or "can" or "may". They are redefining "opening force" in the context of fire doors and apparently, with no additional conditions or details necessary to communicate (like push plates or automatic operators).

 

[teej]

Since local building code officials have no authority to enforce ADA requirements in most places it seems like the 15 lb force would be acceptable. This being said while it may be acceptable fires a code goes it's certainly not acceptable to those with disabilities go. It's probably a call that the local building officials are going to have to make for your or any other applications.

In this case, it is the fire marshal vs ADA coordinator. I am just in the middle. Fire marshal doesn't recognize ADA by statute, but he knows his fire doors pretty well.

 

[RLGA]

This is what the ADA states:

"404.2.9 Door and Gate Opening Force. Fire doors shall have a minimum opening force allowable by the appropriate administrative authority."​

Since the ADA has defaulted to the local authority, which in most cases will be the adopted building code, a fire door with an opening force of 15 lb is to be considered accessible per the specific-requirements-vs.-general-requirements provision in Chapter 1 of the IBC.

 

[my250r11]

It could be 10, 8, 12 or 13... Not to exceed 15lbs. You said classroom doors but you keep saying stuck in the corridor?? Either way most classrooms have teachers and most know there students and if one is in need they will generally help. Also in emergency situations most are required to be with or the last one out. Think you are over thinking this.