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another mixed use ? on sprinklers

permitguy said:
Alright then, find someone (besides yourself) that thinks 13R or 13D provide the appropriate level of protection for an F occupancy. Best of luck in that endeavor.
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In this case, the code does not require protection of the F occupancy, the code requires protection of the R occupancy. In so far as I recall, the boss of the OP in the related thread had the same common sense interpretation. He probably read the entire code instead of opening up the book at random.
 
Actually Ben the R occupancy creates the requirement for sprinkler protection throughout the fire area.

All one fire area, all sprinklered to the appropriate standard.

13D is not the appropriate standard.
 
JBI said:
Actually Ben the R occupancy creates the requirement for sprinkler protection throughout the fire area. All one fire area, all sprinklered to the appropriate standard.

13D is not the appropriate standard.
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With an F and an R there will always be two fire areas.

It is the building which is required to be sprinklered.

When reading the code one needs to pay close attention to which words are used [and which words are not used].

However you are correct that 13D is not appropriate - as I stated earlier, 13R is the minimum required with an R2 occupancy in a two story building.
 
I have a question; 903.3.1.2 states: "Where allowed in buildings of Group R,...in accordance with NFPA 13R.

Is this a building of Group R, or is it a building containing a Group R?
 
The '09 changed it to : Automatic sprinkler systems in Group R occupancies up to and including four stories in height shall be permitted to be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13R.

When reading the code one needs to pay close attention to which words are used [and which words are not used].
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Some would do well to heed their own advice. 13R is not appropriate protection for the F, no matter which code or standard you're reading.
 
brudgers said:
With an F and an R there will always be two fire areas.
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Not unless they are constructed as 2 seperate fire areas

[F] FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers , exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Not unless they are constructed as 2 seperate fire areas[F] FIRE AREA. The aggregate floor area enclosed and bounded by fire walls, fire barriers , exterior walls or horizontal assemblies of a building. Areas of the building not provided with surrounding walls shall be included in the fire area if such areas are included within the horizontal projection of the roof or floor next above.
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There will always be a fire barrier between F and R. See table 508.3.3
 
Strangely, I can't find the part that says F and R don't get the benefit of nonseparated occupancies.

Which of course would require the most restrictive provisions of Chapter 9.

Which would require 13.
 
Now try actually reading Chapter 9.

Then you will find the four threshold conditions under which F-1 occupancies mandate the installation of sprinklers according to NFPA 13.
 
Found it: 903.2.7. "An automatic system installed in accordance with Section 903 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area."

That's the 5th Condition.

That means the Group F is required to be sprinklered.

That means 13.
 
texasbo said:
Found it: 903.2.7. "An automatic system installed in accordance with Section 903 shall be provided throughout all buildings with a Group R fire area."That's the 5th Condition.

That means the Group F is required to be sprinklered.

That means 13.
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The building is required to be sprinklered.

There's nothing about occupancy.

903 includes 13, 13R and 13D

Have you considered reading for comprehension?
 
The building contains both R and F. The most restrictive applies. Remember the section I quoted just a couple of posts ago? I bet if you'd look, you'd see it's in your code too.

And you never answered my question. Is an R/F building not eligible for nonseparated uses?
 
The non-separated occupancies would require a 13R system as well (provided the thresholds for a 13 system for an F1 occupancy were not exceeded).

Of course, your code says nothing which requires a 13 system in the case under consideration. But from long experience, I know that won't keep you from misapplying the code.

The R requirements are most restrictive because they contain a sprinkler requirement for the building. The F1 requirements are less restrictive because they contain no sprinkler requirement.
 
I gotta learn how to do that little smiley with the popcorn.......BTW...I am with the 13 in the F....maybe going to 901.2? Just because the system is not required by the F occ....it still needs to be installed as a required system would be in an F??? IMO
 
steveray said:
I gotta learn how to do that little smiley with the popcorn.......BTW...I am with the 13 in the F....maybe going to 901.2? Just because the system is not required by the F occ....it still needs to be installed as a required system would be in an F??? IMO
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If it was installed per the requirements for F, there would be no system.
 
901.2 Fire protection systems.

Fire protection systems shall be installed, repaired, operated and maintained in accordance with this code and the International Fire Code.

Any fire protection system for which an exception or reduction to the provisions of this code has been granted shall be considered to be a required system.

Exception: Any fire protection system or portion thereof not required by this code shall be permitted to be installed for partial or complete protection provided that such system meets the requirements of this code.

Would a 13 R system ever satisfy the code requirements for an F use?
 
I'd like to think brudgers knows this, but I wouldn't take it for granted:

508.3.1 Occupancy classification. Nonseparated occupancies shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. The requirements of this code shall apply to each portion of the building based on the occupancy classification of that space except that the most restrictive applicable provisions of Section 403 and Chapter 9 shall apply to the building or portion thereof in which the nonseparated occupancies are located.

508.4.1 Occupancy classification. Separated occupancies shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. Each separated space shall comply with this code based on the occupancy classification of that portion of the building.
 
brudgers said:
The non-separated occupancies would require a 13R system as well (provided the thresholds for a 13 system for an F1 occupancy were not exceeded).
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Translation: "I apologize Texasbo; you were right and I was wrong. There will NOT ALWAYS be a fire barrier between an F and an R".

Of course, your code says nothing which requires a 13 system in the case under consideration. But from long experience, I know that won't keep you from misapplying the code.
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Actually, my code says nothing which allows a 13R, and neither does yours. You see, that's only allowed in buildings of Group R Occupancy. This is a building of mixed occupancy.

The R requirements are most restrictive because they contain a sprinkler requirement for the building. The F1 requirements are less restrictive because they contain no sprinkler requirement.
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Now you're just getting desperate. Not at all unlike a wounded animal, who knows the end is inevitable.

And in fact, in this case the code does require sprinklers for the F occupancy. It's required by 903.2.7.
 
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permitguy said:
I'd like to think brudgers knows this, but I wouldn't take it for granted:508.3.1 Occupancy classification. Nonseparated occupancies shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. The requirements of this code shall apply to each portion of the building based on the occupancy classification of that space except that the most restrictive applicable provisions of Section 403 and Chapter 9 shall apply to the building or portion thereof in which the nonseparated occupancies are located.

508.4.1 Occupancy classification. Separated occupancies shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. Each separated space shall comply with this code based on the occupancy classification of that portion of the building.
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Yes, that's the section I referred to earlier. His response was that the requirements for Group R are more restrictive. Pure fantasy.
 
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The sprinkler guy would soil himself if he knew someone would let him sprinkler an F with a 13R.

:popcorn
 
steveray said:
Would a 13 R system ever satisfy the code requirements for an F use?
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A 13R would exceed the requirements of an F use when the F use is limited so as to not require sprinklers.

Which is the case here.

Again, it is the building which is required to have sprinklers throughout when a group R occupancy is present.

If a the intent was for a full 13 system, then the code would so state (as the code does whenever a full 13 system is required) - since the sprinkler requirements for all other occupancies are based on full 13.
 
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