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Architect pleads not guilty in firefighter's death

If I read this right, the sprinklers are required, and thus would they not have been inspected during construction and before final for water flow tests?

So if the sprinklers are required for the home, and were inspected, how did they get installed wrong and passed?

As for the fire places, people do really stupid things for money, I guess he will be thinking real hard on this one for 4 years.
 
TBZ

Reread the articles. The sprinklers were not installed incorrectly. They failed due to the incorrect use, by the owner, of exterior fireplaces, illegally installed inside. Which intern burned the plastic sprinkler pipes, which caused the ceiling to become a interior pool, which crashed down on the firefighters.

The sprinklers were inspected, and passed. The exterior fireplaces were not.
 
People do whatever they want after final, this was his own house, another article I read said that he installed an 18' "fire trough", he built the home to be used as a setting for a reality show.
 
If he had eaten the cookie first he would have found wisdom, in stead he went for the fortune first and found that the cookie did not taste that good after all.
 
mark handler said:
TBZReread the articles. The sprinklers were not installed incorrectly. They failed due to the incorrect use, by the owner, of exterior fireplaces, illegally installed inside. Which intern burned the plastic sprinkler pipes, which caused the ceiling to become a interior pool, which crashed down on the firefighters.

The sprinklers were inspected, and passed. The exterior fireplaces were not.
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Mark,

I guess my question is what good did the sprinklers do here, I don,t really care that the fire places were installed wrong and caused the problem to begin with, my concern is what good are the plastic pipes if they can be burned through in a stupid act by the homeowner,

I have no details, but the question that keeps coming to mind is if the pipes were metal and not plastic would the water failure occurred?
 
tbz said:
mark,i guess my question is what good did the sprinklers do here, i don,t really care that the fire places were installed wrong and caused the problem to begin with, my concern is what good are the plastic pipes if they can be burned through in a stupid act by the homeowner,

i have no details, but the question that keeps coming to mind is if the pipes were metal and not plastic would the water failure occurred?
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what good does a smoke detector do if a owner does not put in a battery?

You can replace the sprinkler pipe with a pex water pipe and still get the same results.

The fireplaces we at fault, not the sprinkler pipe
 
Mark said:
You can replace the sprinkler pipe with a pex water pipe and still get the same results. The fireplaces we at fault, not the sprinkler pipe
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But had the sprinkler pipes been iron or copper they wouldn't have melted, in all likelihood they didn't melt, CPVC has a terrific rate of linear expansion, it will expand and break it's joints prior to melting.

What doesn't make any sense is how water could pond so much that it developed the weight that would take the structure down, sheetrock or plaster over gypsum lath would get so soggy that it would come down without taking the structure and not hurt anyone, the only finish that wouldn't turn to mush is plaster over expanded metal lath, and that's unlikely in a residence, and the water would slowly soak through it. I really wonder if there were lightweight floor trusses above it, the heat could pop the gang-nail plates collapsing them, fire can spread between them also building up so much heat that it would collapse them, another possibility is I Joists, and the structural collapse had nothing to do with the water from the sprinklers, the heat alone collapsing the structure and everything got wet along with the collapse.

Does anyone here know anyone in that jurisdiction who could tell us how the structure was built?
 
conarb said:
What doesn't make any sense is how water could pond so much that it developed the weight that would take the structure down
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Plastic vapor barrier

Type V wood/stucco
 
Conarb,

You are making my point, thanks,

Mark,

It's not about the cause, it's about the failures, and your smoke detector statement is just off base.

From they way I read the limited information I have, it points to the water being the cause of the collapse, which to me just seems odd.

And if it is true that the water caused the collapse, saying the dumb use of the fire places to me is an oversight because there are many items in a house that could produce that much heat and fire, one that comes to mind every day is personnel studios. Sewing studios and a few others.

And if the flew pipe was against the sprinkler pipe and melted the pipe to allow water to flow, would it not steam cool the pipe and flow down along the unit putting the water were it needs to be?

It just sounds hinki to me to introduce the water as the reason for the collapse. I not sticking up for the guy at all, I am just saying that from the information I've read so far, it does not look like the sprinklers helped, and that 1 pipe broken in a sprinkler system, in the ceiling seems way to minor to cause that much distruction without a lot of something else going on.

I had service tech about 6 years ago work in my attic installing a radiant heat ceiling unit in my bathroom, during the installation he uncovered the insulation over my shower and did not put it back, during a really bad cold snap a few years ago, my cold water line froze and cracked, when it thawed I had a mess in the laundry room below when I came home, it was on the riser pipe above the value.

Take it anyway you want, to me if the sprinkler pipe was metal, the statement about melting to me goes away, IMO thus my point
 
One other note, just because one is not a registered architect in California does not mean they do not hold a license in another state or country.

Though it is meaningless as stated to just showboat the headline, to assume one needs to be a registered architect in California or in the United States to hold the title, well is just narrow thinking.

The same goes for many other professions, including building inspectors. How many places till recently didn't have building departments and how many inspectors in many parts of the United states did not even have to have a certification to do the job.

Titles are just titles, and to receive one sometimes it's years of education a

Nd sometimes, it's not!
 
If there was enough fire in the attic concealed space to cause failure of the sprinkler pipe then the structural members in the attic would also be under attack and losing strength. How rapidly they would be losing strength would be a function of how much fire in the attic and their material and shapes. Typical light weight materials including nominal wood 2xs as trusses or stick framed or steel bar joists won't last long under the developed fire conditions it would take to cause the failure of a water filled CPVC pipe.

Another factor is what type of thermal insulation was used? The thin layer of polyurethane that is often sprayed on for air sealing would of helped keep the water from draining and protect the lath and plaster or drywall from getting saturated. The insulation above would also tend to hold water like a sponge, especially if it were cellulose based. Also include the weight of the water from the hose streams used for fire attack.

I suspect the collapse was due to a combination of weakened structural memebers and increased gravity loads from water weight.

It is also likely that this area would of had extra weight in the ceiling due to decorative features that would of added to the impact of the ceiling on the firefighters below.

Ceilings coming down on you in a fire are never fun because you tend to think the whole roof is coming down on your head but usually the drywall just breaks up as it hits you with no damage done. Items hid in the attic on top of the ceiling like gold and silver coins in mason and pickle jars leave bruises through turnouts--and that was in a 900 sq ft house.
 
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beach said:
Possibley not an architect licensed in the United States, but I can't say without a doubt that he is not a licensed architect. It's just splitting hairs anyway, I was under the impression that you felt that the media shouldn't have mentioned he was an architect, regardless if he was a licensed one or not. Would you have approved the headline if you knew for sure he was an architect licensed in the United States? It didn't appear so to me......
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There's no such thing as an unlicensed architect. And in California, there's no such thing as an architect without a California license.
 
tbz said:
Though it is meaningless as stated to just showboat the headline, to assume one needs to be a registered architect in California or in the United States to hold the title, well is just narrow thinking.
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Well narrow thinking + the law in every single one of these United States.
 
Does anyone else think the charges of "negligent homicide" in this case against the owner is a dangerous direction to be going?

If he is found guilty based on the cause of the fire was the improper installation of the fire places where will it end. Will criminal charges be filed against all property owners when a fire fighter dies in the line of duty and the origin of the fire was determined to be faulty wiring during the installation of a ceiling fan?

It is a slippery slope this is starting down.

Reminds me of the case against the Colorado building inspectors.

Fire Fighters die in the line of duty that is a fact and unless the cause of the fire was arson, criminal charges should never be filed. Take it to civil court.
 
I think what brudgers is trying to say, and please my less eloquent response, is that you can't go around one of the 50 United States calling yourself an Architect in that state, if in fact you are not licensed by the regulatory board within that state. For example, in Nebraska, the following would apply:

§ 81-3402. Architecture and engineering; regulation; prohibited acts.

In order to safeguard life, health, and property and to promote the public welfare, the professions of architecture and engineering are declared to be subject to regulation in the public interest. It is unlawful for any person to (1) practice or offer to practice architecture or engineering in this state, (2) use in connection with his or her name, except as provided in sections 81-3413 to 81-3415, or otherwise assume the title architect or professional engineer, or (3) advertise any title or description tending to convey the impression that he or she is a licensed architect or engineer unless the person is duly licensed or exempt from licensure under the Engineers and Architects Regulation Act. The practice of architecture and engineering and use of the titles architect or professional engineer is a privilege granted by the state through the board based on the qualifications of the individual as evidenced by a certificate of licensure which is not transferable.

Source: Laws 1997, LB 622, § 2.

I wonder if the California Regulatory Board has a response to the LA Times article referring to this "area-guy" as an Architect?
 
The articles I read and news reports said he was a “German Architect”, which he maybe

Nowhere does it say he was licensed in CA or anywhere in the states. It is the same as saying he is a “German Doctor” or “German unemployed auto worker”
 
mtlogcabin said:
Does anyone else think the charges of "negligent homicide" in this case against the owner is a dangerous direction to be going?If he is found guilty based on the cause of the fire was the improper installation of the fire places where will it end. Will criminal charges be filed against all property owners when a fire fighter dies in the line of duty and the origin of the fire was determined to be faulty wiring during the installation of a ceiling fan?

It is a slippery slope this is starting down.

Reminds me of the case against the Colorado building inspectors.

Fire Fighters die in the line of duty that is a fact and unless the cause of the fire was arson, criminal charges should never be filed. Take it to civil court.
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He intentionally installed the exterior fireplaces inside, after permits, to circumvent the code, and the listings of the fireplaces.
 
mark handler said:
The articles I read and news reports said he was a “German Architect”, which he maybe Nowhere does it say he was licensed in CA or anywhere in the states. It is the same as saying he is a “German Doctor” or “German unemployed auto worker”
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In California, "German Architect" on his business cards would be illegal. Furthermore, the fact that he is not licensed in the US is far more relevant to the story than the fact that he is licensed in Germany.

However "Unlicensed German Architect" does not carry the same zip.
 
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