Assembly or business?

[JPohling]

Yikes, No I think most parents know how these types of facilities will be used as they spend plenty of time there. I have done a few martial arts gyms. most in the 2,000 - 3,000 SF range. normal practice times are not the issue. When there are promotions and or tournaments that is when you have people assembling for the event.

 

[BRodgers]

Brodgers, is the 5800 Sf space a single room? Or is it broken up with restrooms, storage, reception area, locker rooms, etc.?

JPohling, when "Martial Arts Studios" was added to the list of B training occupancies in 2015, do you suspect that the code committee was unaware of how the studios get used occasionally for a gathering?

I feel like this is drifting towards old discussions of what CBC 302.1 meant by classifying the PRIMARY use.
Otherwise, there are even many many single family residences that have been known to exceed 50 occupants when the partying gets good.

4500sqf is open space, then the remainder is an an office, bathrooms, storage, and a small front reception area. he did have a section of the 4500sqf labeled as seating but this seating was couches and picnic tables for families or athletes to wait or relax till classes start or stop. I believe if the committees intent was to limit these occupancies to 50 people before calling it an A then these occupancies would be listed under an A occupancy not a B and I have a hard time thinking that the committee would be unaware of how these studios are used. In order to keep the fire official happy we limited his "spectator seating" to 10% of his floor space. Although I personally would not consider couches and picnic tables to be what code considers to be "spectator seating".

 

[Tim Mailloux]

Not sure where I fall on this, but speaking from personal experience I have visited many MA studios / gyms much smaller than the one described above for weekend seminars with WELL over 50 people crammed onto a small training mat. Sometimes portable mats are even brought in and the viewing area becomes a packed temporary training area. With 4500sqft of open space I could see this gym occasionally being mobbed with people for seminars or small competitions.

 

[BRodgers]

If these events are 1 offs or somewhat of rare occasions is there any reason they couldn't apply for a special event permit if the jurisdiction allows for those (mine does) In that case instead of changing his occupancy since that would not be his primary use? In talks with the owner he has no plans for competitions and the events he has in mind would be a guess trainer of sorts to teach a class.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

the events he has in mind would be a guess trainer of sorts to teach a class.

Guest trainer = seminar. Many MA gyms don't make that much money from monthly student dues. But throw a weekend seminar once a month for $100 to $200 per head with a guest instructor and its a nice way to supplement the gyms income.

 

[Yikes]

Guest trainer = seminar. Many MA gyms don't make that much money from monthly student dues. But throw a weekend seminar once a month for $100 to $200 per head with a guest instructor and its a nice way to supplement the gyms income.

Whether the trainer is a guest or an employee is irrelevant to the wording and application of the code. The training would still take up the same amount of space. Or are you suspecting that a guest trainer would rearrange the space into a lecture hall instead? If that were the case, people could just stay home and watch the training on YouTube.

I suggest requesting a <49 occupancy limit from the building official for the everyday use of the gym.
If you decide you want a special even that exceeds 49 occupants, then apply for a special event permit at that time.

 

[Sifu]

Whether the trainer is a guest or an employee is irrelevant to the wording and application of the code. The training would still take up the same amount of space. Or are you suspecting that a guest trainer would rearrange the space into a lecture hall instead? If that were the case, people could just stay home and watch the training on YouTube.

I suggest requesting a <49 occupancy limit from the building official for the everyday use of the gym.
If you decide you want a special even that exceeds 49 occupants, then apply for a special event permit at that time.

I taught at one, about 2500sf² for many years, even built a little seating area with 10 chairs for observation. On average 360 days out of 365 there were less than 15 people in the entire space. When we held seminars on the other 5 days it could be about 50. Never even crossed my mind to get a special events permit. Even with seminars we figured about 100sf² per pair. More than 25 pair of participants was rare and uncomfortable. This was for working out, not seating, standing or assembling. If anyone engaged in sitting, standing or assembling, they ended up doing push-ups. Very rarely did we have guest instructors that would cause an OL to go much farther than 50, and if that was anticipated we found a better venue. No doubt they can exceed the number the space is designed for, but in my mind they were never assembly occupancies. For the record, we had two exits, rear was panic, main a keyed cylinder with lock indicator. Not sure if that was good design or required by the BO when it was permitted.

I taught at one in another state, it was a big event, but it was anticipated and held in a gymnasium. There were a lot of people watching in the stands. That portion would have been assembly since they were assembled to watch those of us on the floor.

And Tim is right on the money..no money in everyday training.

 

[Yikes]

The original post was about adding panic hardware. This in and of itself might be no big deal to install, but to the extent that it opens up other code requirements related to assembly, the cumulative effect may make it worth the OP deciding to push back.

 

[Feanor]

I am working on a real estate office. There is a 648 sf training room and a 555 sf break room, the other 6200 sf is office use . The reviewer wants me to put panic hardware on all of the exit/ exit access doors. See below for permit comment and my response. He came back with the exact same comment a second time.

Reviewer: There are over 50 people in the assembly occupancies in the space, please provide panic hardware on the egress doors from the suite.

Response: I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of this code. IBC section 303.2.1 (2) A room or space used for assembly purposes that is less than 750 sf in area and accessory to another occupancy shall be classified as Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy. Further, IBC 1010.2.9 Swinging doors serving a Group H occupancy and swinging doors serving rooms or spaces with an occupant load of 50 or more in a Group A or E occupancy shall not be provided with a latch or lock other than panic hardware or fire exit hardware. As all of these gathering spaces are less than 750 sf, they are considered a B occupancy, not an A or an E. Training room 337 is 648 sf and the break room is 555 sf.

May I ask what type of training room this is? is it chairs and tables or chairs only? Curious to know if he calculated the space on 15 sf or 7 sf.
Thanks.

 

[walker.t]

May I ask what type of training room this is?

You know what’s funny, this whole time when I read “training room” I was thinking of a little weight room, I didn’t think about it being a room where staff are trained in the educational sense! I know a guy who bought a small office building, it had a fairly decent weight room, they kept it for staff to use after hours.