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Attic access (R807) - Screws hold shut?

F

Fort

Silver Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
128
Location
California
For an attic access hatch, four wood-screws hold the cover door closed.

Inspector says that screws are not acceptable...they say it is a fire dept. access issue.

but Section R807 does not say anything about how the access door is to operate, latch, or lock.

I say a few screws is fine, as I am sure a fire fighter would not complain about

not having a screw gun handy. They will just use their halligan and go.

What do you think?

Would you accept screws?

What about a lock?
 
is that all they found wrong!!!!!!!!!!! dang you are doing great, guess they needed to get their one item quota
 
Fire Dept attic access--- Screws are okay

article.242255.large.jpg
 
tell him you were complying with:::

Item # 10 :::

402.4 Air leakage (Mandatory).

402.4.1 Building thermal envelope. The building thermal envelope shall be durably sealed to limit infiltration. The sealing methods between dissimilar materials shall allow for differential expansion and contraction. The following shall be caulked, gasketed, weatherstripped or otherwise sealed with an air barrier material, suitable film or solid material:

1. All joints, seams and penetrations.

2. Site-built windows, doors and skylights.

3. Openings between window and door assemblies and their respective jambs and framing.

4. Utility penetrations.

5. Dropped ceilings or chases adjacent to the thermal envelope.

6. Knee walls.

7. Walls and ceilings separating a garage from conditioned spaces.

8. Behind tubs and showers on exterior walls.

9. Common walls between dwelling units.

10. Attic access openings.

11. Rim joist junction.

12. Other sources of infiltration.
 
I have nothing to do with the project, but am hearing about it.

It is the building inspector in another county,

whom I have great respect, but question his ambitions...

He recently joined the volunteer fire department.

The fire official just goes with whatever he says.

Seems like he is enforcing his own ideas about how it should be,

rather than the code itself.
 
Fort,

Where is the attic access and what size is it?

I don't understand what the problem is with the screws.

Did the Building Inspector give a reason?
 
Agree with everything said so far...........no problem. Tell whoever is on the receiving end of this call, to politely challenge the inspector to point it out in the code, so that he can help educate others......... :devil
 
As both a Fire officer with 30 years and a Building Official for 10 years experance, I am happy now that the we use the ICC family of codes, and in those codes the location of the attic access is required to be readily accessible and this now clearly get the attic access out of the closet full of clothes.

Now to the screws issue, that is fine with me with both hats on. The purpose of the access to me as firefight is to provide access to the attic if we need to check to make sure. If there is really a fire in the attic we are not going to look for the attic scuttle, we will just open the whole ceiling up to get to the seat of the fire, if we screw around with that scuttle they will probably be buying more than a ceiling worth of sheet rock, more like a new roof system.
 
What is the difference between four screws holding a hatch closed vs. a small sheet of gypsum board with four screws and finished joints - clearly marked "attic access opening"? When a door is screwed shut it becomes a wall. An opening that is screwed shut is not an opening.

FWIW, fire fighters are trained to "try before you pry". In a case where there is no need to destroy anything but there is a need for urgent access, they will not wait for somebody to find a screw driver. It will be opened swiftly. If the access could actually be accessed, they will simply open the hatch and move on. FWIW, fire fighters don't care how they access something when they have to, but the homeowner and the insurance company will when there is a minor issue that turned into a major avoidable repair. IRC 2009 R101.4 - discusses life and PROPERTY. R311.1 could also be used. The inspector may be reaching a bit, but is it really a big deal to do it right? What exactly are they attempting to do by screwing the hatch shut?
 
"What exactly are they attempting to do by screwing the hatch shut?"

Well, as said before, could be compliance with whole house tightness required be the IECC, or maybe like in my case, with a man door in the garage pointing north, half dozen times a year, when I open the door, my access lid sucks right on up, then most of the time, falls out of the opening, and that is with a R-30 batt sitting on top of it.
 
Anybody have a commentary? What is the reasoning for the required attic access opening? That will explain the intent of the code. My opinion remains .... screws are permantent. Spend a few dollars on a simple latch system and call it approved. It will also be much more asthetically pleasing than a few unfinished screw heads.

I realize it probably doesn't apply in this case, but take a look at IPMC 102.5. Would this be approved under that requirement? I would question if this could be considered "executed in a skilled manner".
 
MikeC said:
Anybody have a commentary? What is the reasoning for the required attic access opening? That will explain the intent of the code.
Click to expand...
"The requirement for an attic access is predicated on the likelihood that during the life of the structure, access to an attic space for repair of piping, electrical and mechanical systems will be required."

How about a hinge attic gable vent about 30 ft. up above a steep slope; then there's the padlock on the outside main disconnect; it's access for convenience.

Francis
 
The location of the hatch needs to be readily accessible, nothing is said about the space above being readily accessible. If the space above the hatch was required to be readily accessible, screws would not comply. The hatch is not there for the firemen although I do "sell" it that way (Mark, nice picture : )
 
1209.2 IBC commentary:

"Access to the attic provides a convenient and nondestructive means for fire department personnel to visually check for an attic fire and, if need be, gain entry to the concealed spaces and suppress a fire."

Francis
 
Hey guys I am mostly a lurker but thought i would throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth. If there is equipment and things in the attic space that require access i would argue that screwing the access door shut defeats the purpose. If the access was for an attic that doesn't have anything in it I wouldn't have a problem. As far as firemen go they are not going to go through a scuttle hole or take the time for the access they will take down the ceiling first. They are going to put out the fire the fastest and safest way they can.
 
Francis Vineyard said:
1209.2 IBC commentary:"Access to the attic provides a convenient and nondestructive means for fire department personnel to visually check for an attic fire and, if need be, gain entry to the concealed spaces and suppress a fire."
Click to expand...
As I stated above, when there is no need to be destructive but there is an urgent need to access the attic, fire fighters will do what is needed to gain entry as quick as possible. Screws will lead to destructive forces being utilized by fire fighters. In the event that there is an actual known fire in the attic (only 5.7% based on FEMA numbers provided by mark handler in another post), the entire ceiling will be damaged by water regardless of how the access is made to the attic. The problem is with the 94.3% of fires where the attic needs to be checked for fire extension in an efficient and timely manner.

"Crap, somebody screwed this shut! Does anybody have a screw driver? Nope, but I do have a master key that can open anything"
 
The apartments have locks on the exterior doors. Destructive entry is already a fact.

Would a keyed locking latch on the attic access door be acceptable?

No different than a lock on a door.

It may also reduce life/safety concerns with the attic being used as a storage space when it should not be.

Think of apartment dwellers who use it as a spot to put their Christmas decorations and other flammable crap.

A locked or screwed access door may be enough to deter such activities.

If it was an emergency, that door is coming down in no time no matter what.

If it is not an emergency, I have never seen a fire truck not containing a set of small tools including a drill gun.
 
Francis Vineyard said:
1209.2 IBC commentary:"Access to the attic provides a convenient and nondestructive means for fire department personnel to visually check for an attic fire and, if need be, gain entry to the concealed spaces and suppress a fire."Francis
Click to expand...
I thought we were talking IRC? is which case, the commentary read as previously posted "The requirement for an attic access is predicated on the likelihood that during the life of the structure, access to an attic space for repair of piping, electrical and mechanical systems will be required."
 
Yankee said:
The location of the hatch needs to be readily accessible, nothing is said about the space above being readily accessible. If the space above the hatch was required to be readily accessible, screws would not comply. The hatch is not there for the firemen although I do "sell" it that way (Mark, nice picture : )
Click to expand...
Support for your selling point.

Francis
 
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