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Ballet Studio Designation

Balletman

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Mar 31, 2021
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Florida
Hi, we are wanting to open a ballet studio and wanted to see what this use would be classified as (educational or commercial/business). The space will be 1,500 sf with 1,200 net. What would be the occupancy and how is that determined. It is in Florida. Thanks
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
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Welcome

There is a Floridian on here that can give the best answer.

If it is not say a five day a week/ eight hour program, it should not be under Educational.

After that it is based on the square feet of the rooms actually used for dance class,,, which than converts to the occupant load level.
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
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Just a note

Zoning and Building code requirements can be different animals.

You might meet all the building codes,,, but the city may say your Use is not allowed in this Zone.
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
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Check with your city and assure wording matches:::



Rough numbers about 2550 square feet are so would push you over 50 people


Over 50 people:::

303.1 Assembly Group A

Assembly Group A occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for the gathering of persons for purposes such as civic, social or religious functions; recreation, food or drink consumption or awaiting transportation.


303.4 Assembly Group A-3

Group A-3 occupancy includes assembly uses intended for worship, recreation or amusement and other assembly uses not classified elsewhere in Group A including, but not limited to

Gymnasiums (without spectator seating)


Under 50 people

304.1 Business Group B

Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts. Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:



Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy).
 

classicT

Sawhorse
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Aug 2, 2017
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1,768
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Washington State
B; you will most likely have an occupant load less than 50 (1500sf/50=30-occupants), so an A-3 gymnasium is a mute point. Personally, so long as there is not a large seating/observation area (i.e. bleachers), then I view this type of establishment as a skills development center which is a Group B occupancy anyways.

303.1.1 Small Buildings and Tenant Spaces
A building or tenant space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons shall be classified as a Group B occupancy.
 

Balletman

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Mar 31, 2021
Messages
11
Location
Florida
Welcome

There is a Floridian on here that can give the best answer.

If it is not say a five day a week/ eight hour program, it should not be under Educational.

After that it is based on the square feet of the rooms actually used for dance class,,, which than converts to the occupant load level.
I agree. It’s closer to a karate studio than anything else. Very recreational and no curriculum or certifications. Appreciate your insight.
 

Balletman

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Joined
Mar 31, 2021
Messages
11
Location
Florida
Just a note

Zoning and Building code requirements can be different animals.

You might meet all the building codes,,, but the city may say your Use is not allowed in this Zone.
I cleared that with the city. They said the building allows for both. If it’s classed as a learning center for some reason will occupancy still be calculated the same way as B or would it be different. Just trying to learn all of this!
 

Balletman

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Mar 31, 2021
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Location
Florida
I noted a basic occupant load calculation above.

1500sf / OLF of 50-gross = 30 occupants
Where did you reference the 1 per 50-gross? I’ve read in here dance studios could be 1 per 15. There was a long thread discussing what is realistic and many argued the 50 is appropriate for spacing.
 

Balletman

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11
Location
Florida
B; you will most likely have an occupant load less than 50 (1500sf/50=30-occupants), so an A-3 gymnasium is a mute point. Personally, so long as there is not a large seating/observation area (i.e. bleachers), then I view this type of establishment as a skills development center which is a Group B occupancy anyways.

303.1.1 Small Buildings and Tenant Spaces
A building or tenant space used for assembly purposes with an occupant load of less than 50 persons shall be classified as a Group B occupancy.
How would I present this to the city to get a B. I want to be able to defend the B class designation as the definition of skill development not in a school or academic program truly describes us the best. The reason I’m asking because the learning center definition per the city is as follows

Learning Center
A facility offering to students training, tutoring or instruction in subjects such as languages, music, fine arts or dance. This may include provision of electronic testing and distance learning.

my thought is to point out we are not a school nor certified to be one. Also point out the definition of the skill development and reference the examples are very close to what we are.

we want to go in guns blazing to make sure we get the B as the prior use was a B as well.
 

classicT

Sawhorse
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Washington State
How would I present this to the city to get a B. I want to be able to defend the B class designation as the definition of skill development not in a school or academic program truly describes us the best. The reason I’m asking because the learning center definition per the city is as follows

Learning Center
A facility offering to students training, tutoring or instruction in subjects such as languages, music, fine arts or dance. This may include provision of electronic testing and distance learning.

my thought is to point out we are not a school nor certified to be one. Also point out the definition of the skill development and reference the examples are very close to what we are.

we want to go in guns blazing to make sure we get the B as the prior use was a B as well.
It is unlikely that the city will have that definition added to the building code. It is probably within the zoning code, which is entirely different.

Do you have a reference that you can share as to where you located that definition? Sometimes the terms are the same in the building code and zoning regulations, but that doesn't mean that that they both pertain to the same project.
 

Balletman

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Mar 31, 2021
Messages
11
Location
Florida
It is unlikely that the city will have that definition added to the building code. It is probably within the zoning code, which is entirely different.

Do you have a reference that you can share as to where you located that definition? Sometimes the terms are the same in the building code and zoning regulations, but that doesn't mean that that they both pertain to the same project.
You are correct. It’s the zoning code with that learning center definition. I’m crossing the two up. I’ll send you the source link soon. It’s Miami 21 doc I found that definition.

Would occupancy load change with different zoning classification?

Very new at this. Thanks for help.
 

Balletman

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Mar 31, 2021
Messages
11
Location
Florida
Nope. Zoning and Building are almost entirely separate.
You’re the man with the master plan!

I looked into the zoning designations I’d most likely fall into, either educational (learning center) or commercial (general commercial).

to confirm:

1) can the building department classify the studio as B occupancy with either of the above zoning designation? Or will they pin me to educational occupancy class if zoning gives me the educational (learning center).

2. Does a particular zoning designation have any impact on anything that could affect the buildout or lease. Such as parking or anything building related? Or is zoning mainly there to allow for what can be in a particular area.

does this sub let you send gold or awards like in Reddit. Would be cool.
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
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Oct 19, 2009
Messages
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You’re the man with the master plan!

I looked into the zoning designations I’d most likely fall into, either educational (learning center) or commercial (general commercial).

to confirm:

1) can the building department classify the studio as B occupancy with either of the above zoning designation? Or will they pin me to educational occupancy class if zoning gives me the educational (learning center).

2. Does a particular zoning designation have any impact on anything that could affect the buildout or lease. Such as parking or anything building related? Or is zoning mainly there to allow for what can be in a particular area.

does this sub let you send gold or awards like in Reddit. Would be cool.

Sounds like of the two,,,, general commercial

Zoning should not mess with this being a B,,,

304.1 Business Group B

Business Group B occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for office, professional or service-type transactions, including storage of records and accounts. Business occupancies shall include, but not be limited to, the following:



Training and skill development not in a school or academic program (this shall include, but not be limited to, tutoring centers, martial arts studios, gymnastics and similar uses regardless of the ages served, and where not classified as a Group A occupancy).



Zoning is different in some cities,,,

Could dictate how many parking spaces you need,, bathrooms,,
 

classicT

Sawhorse
Joined
Aug 2, 2017
Messages
1,768
Location
Washington State
You’re the man with the master plan!

I looked into the zoning designations I’d most likely fall into, either educational (learning center) or commercial (general commercial).

to confirm:

1) can the building department classify the studio as B occupancy with either of the above zoning designation? Or will they pin me to educational occupancy class if zoning gives me the educational (learning center).

2. Does a particular zoning designation have any impact on anything that could affect the buildout or lease. Such as parking or anything building related? Or is zoning mainly there to allow for what can be in a particular area.

does this sub let you send gold or awards like in Reddit. Would be cool.
1 - Building department will just check whatever you submit. If you submit as a B, you should have no issues.
2 - Zoning will be a go or no-go answer. Basically the use is either allowed or is not allowed. I doubt that you would have much issue except in a heavy industrial zone or a residential zone.
 

ADAguy

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Sep 11, 2013
Messages
5,662
Location
California
How would I present this to the city to get a B. I want to be able to defend the B class designation as the definition of skill development not in a school or academic program truly describes us the best. The reason I’m asking because the learning center definition per the city is as follows

Learning Center
A facility offering to students training, tutoring or instruction in subjects such as languages, music, fine arts or dance. This may include provision of electronic testing and distance learning.

my thought is to point out we are not a school nor certified to be one. Also point out the definition of the skill development and reference the examples are very close to what we are.

we want to go in guns blazing to make sure we get the B as the prior use was a B as well.
Think dance studio as in ballroom? if so similar to Arthur Murray, if so 1/15 is more appropriate as your studio is an open area without equipment, more room for students. Saw similar studios in Havana for National Dance Company.
 

Balletman

Registered User
Joined
Mar 31, 2021
Messages
11
Location
Florida
Think dance studio as in ballroom? if so similar to Arthur Murray, if so 1/15 is more appropriate as your studio is an open area without equipment, more room for students. Saw similar studios in Havana for National Dance
I’ve seen 1/15 and also 1/50 on here. In reality the spacing required is 50sf and more. 1/15 is way too tight and unrealistic. The architect I’ve been talking with is saying we can classify it as 1/50 exercise room or 1/15 dance studio. We never get near even 30 kids. All recitals are held offsite as well.

Does the tenant have any say or influence as to what the occupancy and function will be with the city? We want to get the 1/50 as it’s much more realistic to functionality of the space.
 

cda

Sawhorse 123
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
19,955
Location
Basement
I’ve seen 1/15 and also 1/50 on here. In reality the spacing required is 50sf and more. 1/15 is way too tight and unrealistic. The architect I’ve been talking with is saying we can classify it as 1/50 exercise room or 1/15 dance studio. We never get near even 30 kids. All recitals are held offsite as well.

Does the tenant have any say or influence as to what the occupancy and function will be with the city? We want to get the 1/50 as it’s much more realistic to functionality of the space.

Submit it as you want it....

See if it flys with the ahj

If falls out of the sky,,, you can always have a discussion and see what comes of it.

In reality ,,, if the higher occupant load does not increase code requirements/// Cost

It does not matter
 
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