Banquette as concealed space

[cda]

It's basically a cabinet. Where does NFPA 13 require sprinklers in cabinets?

It doesn't.

If it were say a 7 x 7 foot cabinet attached to the wall, or maybe not even attached to the wall, more than likely I would look hard about getting a sprinkler in it.

 

[tmurray]

It's basically a cabinet. Where does NFPA 13 require sprinklers in cabinets?

It doesn't.

When I worked for a FPE, anything that was designed by an architect or engineer was considered part of the structure and fell under jurisdiction of NFPA 13. So bulkheads, raised platforms, walk-in coolers, etc. all needed protection. So if a cabinet is seven feet high and seven feet wide, but only a foot deep, the answer would be no, but if it was six feet deep, the answer would probably be yes. CDA isn't wrong, a lot of this is dealt with on a case by case basis and at the discretion of the official, but when we talk about extending NFPA 13 to banquette seating with no services and separated from the structure, you've created a pretty high standard for fire protection. At that point you should be looking at installing sprinklers anywhere where there is an obstruction to spray pattern development, in cabinets, under counters, etc. The other concern I have is when the seating for the restaurant gets changed, what would otherwise be a cosmetic (provided no increase to occupant load) now requires at the very least a sprinkler contractor to remove sprinkler heads and likely a sprinkler consultant to relocate them.

 

[FM William Burns]

Sometimes one may or chooses to not see the forest beyond the trees.....…….

NFPA 13, 2010 (As referenced)



8.1.1* The requirements for spacing, location, and position of sprinklers shall be based on the following principles:

(7) Furniture, such as portable wardrobe units, cabinets, trophy cases, and similar features not intended for occupancy, does not require sprinklers to be installed in them. This type of feature shall be permitted to be attached to the finished structure.

 

[cda]

Well a food cabinet, or mop room , or is not intended for occupancy, but sprinklers are not left out of them.

So if the trophy case for the super bowl trophy is in a 7' x 7' case, lights in it, no sprinklers?

 

[ICE]

So what's the big deal? Fire block it at ten feet and be done with it. I get that it may not make much sense but it is such a small thing it's not worth arguing over it.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

They gonna light fireworks in the damn thing?

Brent.

 

[FM William Burns]

Well a food cabinet, or mop room , or is not intended for occupancy, but sprinklers are not left out of them.So if the trophy case for the super bowl trophy is in a 7' x 7' case, lights in it, no sprinklers?

The first observation examples are rooms and are not nor do they meet the omission criteria like <55 s.f. bathrooms in R design schemes and therefore are required to have protection in "throughout" applicable building. The second observation for the super bowl trophy example is a furnishing and the intent is the room sprinkler(s) would handle a fire originating in the trophy case. (See Handbook) too large to paste in here



P.S. I believe someone said below something relative to conference tables...... they obstruct discharge but the room head(s) are intended to handle the fire under the table.......... to the other reference "too small to argue" code official interpretational conflicts cause un-necessary delay and cost and add to people's negative opinions and wrong groupings of all code officials!

 

[hlfireinspector]

Basically this is what I was working towards and that was my solution.

So what's the big deal? Fire block it at ten feet and be done with it. I get that it may not make much sense but it is such a small thing it's not worth arguing over it.

 

[cda]

apply NFPA 13

case by case sometimes

 

[FM William Burns]

hlfi,

CDA please expand on this. I had one that ran around three side of a Beauty supply store and they wanted to store there inventory inside it. The platform had electrical passing through it and was not draftstopped in any way. It was about 3 feet tall by eighty feet long by five foot wide. It was in a NFPA 13 building.

Don't intend to reply for CDA but one could evaluate a raised platform as (a raised floor) and NFPA 13 addresses this scenario.

 

[cda]

Your Honor, I enforce NFPA 13.

Yes your Honor, it cannot cover everything, the human mind can build.

Yes your Honor, I go by the book, if I make a call and someone shows me in the book I am wrong, I have no problem changing the call.

No your Honor, I prefer the black and white stripe coveralls over the bright pink, it matches my code book.

 

[ChrisEllis]

I didn't expect this question to be such a hot topic. Thank you, everyone, for your input. I did end up receiving a response from the fire marshal. He said fill it with insulation. $25 worth of insulation and 20 minutes of my time seemed cheaper than arguing the finer points of the code or risking butting heads with somebody that has the power to make my life a whole lot more difficult.

 

[IJHumberson]

The critical text from NFPA 13 is: 8.15.1.1 Concealed Spaces Requiring Sprinkler Protection. Concealed spaces of exposed combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers except in concealed spaces where sprinklers are not required to be installed by 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 and 8.15.6.

I don't see anything in Sections 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 or 8.15.6 that would exempt the space described by the OP, so I would require the space to be protected or filled with noncombustible insulation.

 

[tmurray]

The critical text from NFPA 13 is: 8.15.1.1 Concealed Spaces Requiring Sprinkler Protection. Concealed spaces of exposed combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers except in concealed spaces where sprinklers are not required to be installed by 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 and 8.15.6.I don't see anything in Sections 8.15.1.2.1 through 8.15.1.2.18 or 8.15.6 that would exempt the space described by the OP, so I would require the space to be protected or filled with noncombustible insulation.

8.1.1 indicates that furniture not intended to be occupied does not need sprinklers as the sprinkler installed in the room should be designed to suppress the fire. FM William Burns has the actual code text in his reply.

 

[JBI]

From the OP... "The banquette is basically an enclosed bench seat (~18"x18") spanning just over 20'."

Can we focus on the actual condition? 18 INCHES by 18 INCHES by 20+ feet.

Clearly not intended for human occupancy.

 

[ADAguy]

Key words: exposed (to what?)

: Furniture or casework (is it fixed in place or loose?)

: source of ignition (is smoking allowed, table candles?) any electrical outlets near by, adjacent wall or is the banquette located in the middle of the room?

: Finish (Class A <25 FS?) What if you use fire treated wood in lieu of insulation?

Lastly, if 20' long it is most likely constructed of multiple compartments, if so, then insulating each could be less expensive than sprinklers.

 

[FM William Burns]

Just like test questions, do we read into the question.......that handbook is pretty clear.............just saying! (Furniture v. Architectural) feature........ Have a blessed Christmas one and all.