• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Barriers

Maybe pass.....1-3/4" is usually the magic # on spacing for unclimbability w/ vert and horiz members........(assuming that is the width dim.).....
 
It sounds like it's too easy to climb. Hand holds are not allowed. A kid with no legs could be over it in a flash. And if he had no arms as well, we would call him Bob.
 
Sorry!....No good! we have some nice parting gifts for you out back then!

Keystone said:
The 1 3/4" is vertical and the 4" is horizontal.ICE - Bob is appropriate for the first couple minutes but his last name would have to follow "Sinker".
Click to expand...
 
My interpretation, the fence does not comply. IMHO, re: 2009 IRC, the fence is most similar to a chain link, also referred to as mesh, and the limiting dimensions for opening of a chain link apply. Additionally lattice opening offer less of an open dimension.

Neighboring and building official feel the original opening complies. What say some of the inspectors in rural and suburban areas?
 
I think this is the section that would get them, I don't think you need the chain link or latttice reference..........

4. Where the barrier is composed of horizontal and vertical members and the distance between the tops of the horizontal members is less than 45 inches (1143 mm), the horizontal members shall be located on the swimming pool side of the fence. Spacing between vertical members shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width. Where there are decorative cutouts within vertical members, spacing within the cutouts shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width.
 
I would agree but the limiting factor in #4 is the width at 1 3/4", no limiting factor with respect to horizontal. What I get from the commentary is not clear either, they illustrate a fence with one decorative cutout at the top.

My first comment was non-climbable but realized nothing in the code to back it up.

Two straws I continue to grasp;

1. The fence material attached to the split rail is consistent with a chain link material/construction.

2. The commentary illustration showing #4 as well as other vertical/horizontal references seem to elude to non-wire/non-mesh type material similar to whats in place but instead providing the opinion of rigid/solid construction.
 
After second look, I think I know where you guys are going with #4. The horizontal must be on the inside/ pool side not the pool side (split rail) and the exterior (mesh fencing).
 
Think of your split rail as a ladder.....if the horizontal rails (or whaterver horizontals your barrier is made of (deck surface, whatever)) are closer than 45" they have to be on the pool side and the vertical spacing (4" chicken wire,ballusters, or whatever) has to be 1-3/4" max....the wire in and of itself would be argueable....having climbed many a chainlink fence barefoot, I don't think wire would be easier....

Keystone said:
After second look, I think I know where you guys are going with #4. The horizontal must be on the inside/ pool side not the pool side (split rail) and the exterior (mesh fencing).
Click to expand...
 
The wire mesh should be securely fastened to the post at the top and bottom and no more than 12 inches apart. No more than 2 inches apart along the horizontal top and bottom rails. Need to have the bottom of the fabric embedded or staked below the soil; it's not likely to have a tension wire stretched to prevent lifting the fabric and crawl underneath.

FCW-48PR-IMG1.jpg


FCW-48PR-IMG2.jpg


untitled.jpg


Francis
 
Francis, the top pic is closest to what I am dealing with, actually seems to be similar spacing. Its this that I do not feel complies due to the spacing. IMO, once you slap on the mesh, you revert to the closest relation, chainlink requirements - max 2 1/4" opening.

I do see the need for ground level tension or burial as well as 12" OC fastening.
 
I copied the pictures from a fence company in Maryland. I used to install commercial fence 30 yrs. ago and manage to remember a little bit. If you search "pool barrier fence wire mesh minimum gage" you can find some code handouts that require 16, 11 or 14 gage, and permit this type of install.

Normally chain link fence less than 6 ft. will not have bottom tension wire (coil wire) and it may be the case with the wire mesh; depends on the thickness (gage) and memory of the wire.

Francis
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Keystone said:
Francis, the top pic is closest to what I am dealing with, actually seems to be similar spacing. Its this that I do not feel complies due to the spacing. IMO, once you slap on the mesh, you revert to the closest relation, chainlink requirements - max 2 1/4" opening. I do see the need for ground level tension or burial as well as 12" OC fastening.
Click to expand...
5. Where the barrier is composed of horizontal and vertical members, and the distance between the tops of the horizontal members is 45 inches (1143 mm) or more, spacing between vertical members shall not exceed 4 inches (102 mm). Where there are decorative cutouts within vertical members, spacing within the cutouts shall not exceed 13/4 inches (44 mm) in width.

Should you do a search manufacturer's and fence companies promote the mesh as pool barrier compliant as do code officials.

The fastener spacing is chain link standard. I should have written that the bottom or ground level tension is "to be installed as needed" done for pool barriers but not for border fences. If you can determine that a child can lift it up or the fabric does not return to its original position then it needs to be reinforced.

I have not check the new pool barrier reference for standards.

Francis
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Keystone, I appreciate these tests you give us, and I might not of heard what you said that you think I heard for me to give you the answer you wanted.

Francis
 
We don't enforce the barrier requirements; wish we did. Approximately 6 to 8 kids a year die in pool drownings in Oklahoma each year. I see pools around her open to the road. :(
 
Update, per ICC interpretation -

1. Chain link fence is the only fence approved by the ICC

2. Split rail fence with wire mesh not acceptable

3. AG 105.2 #4 & #5 specifically apply to rigid fence material.
 
Keystone said:
Update, per ICC interpretation - 1. Chain link fence is the only fence approved by the ICC

2. Split rail fence with wire mesh not acceptable

3. AG 105.2 #4 & #5 specifically apply to rigid fence material.
Click to expand...
Keystone thanks for the update.

I have to disagree;

1. code says barrier requirements, chain links are address elsewhere; line item 6 (IBC 3109.4.1.5)

2. same as aforementioned and

3. what standard is referenced in the code for rigid material that can be only chain link?

Meshdia_zps637eff9a.jpg


Looking at the new 2012 ISPSC adds further clarification for wire mesh material;

305.2.4 Mesh restraining barrier/fence.

Mesh fences, other than chain link fences in accordance with :Next('./icod_ispsc_2012_3_par031.htm')'>Section 305.2.7, shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions and shall comply with the following:

1. The bottom of the mesh restraining fence shall be not more than 1 inch (25 mm) above the deck or installed surface or grade.

2. The maximum vertical clearance from the bottom of the mesh fence and the solid surface shall not permit the fence to be lifted more than 4 inches (102 mm) from grade or decking.

3. The fence shall be designed and constructed so that it does not allow passage of a 4-inch (102 mm) sphere under any mesh panel. The maximum vertical clearance from the bottom of the mesh fence and the solid surface shall not be more than 4 inches (102 mm) from grade or decking.

4. An attachment device shall attach each barrier section at a height not lower than 45 inches (1143 mm) above grade. Common attachment devices include, but are not limited to, devices that provide the security equal to or greater than that of a hook-and-eye-type latch incorporating a spring-actuated retaining lever such as a safety gate hook.

5. Where a hinged gate is used with a mesh barrier, the gate shall comply with :Next('./icod_ispsc_2012_3_par035.htm')'>Section 305.3.

6. Patio deck sleeves such as vertical post receptacles which are placed inside the patio surface shall be of a nonconductive material.

7. Mesh fences shall not be used on top of on ground residential pools

Francis
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top