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Bonding Jumper

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globe trekker said:
What about Article 300.21, 2008 NEC? Also, if you as the electrical contractor of record penetratesa rated assembly with your electrical conduit / conductors / other, the general contractor is then

responsible for repairing your work?
300.21 Spread of Fire or Products of Combustion.

Electrical installations in hollow spaces, vertical shafts, and ventilation or air-handling ducts shall be made so that the possible spread of fire or products of combustion will not be substantially increased. Openings around electrical penetrations through fire-resistant-rated walls, partitions, floors, or ceilings shall be firestopped using approved methods to maintain the fire resistance rating.

How many fire walls are there is dwelling units?

If he wants it fixed he will fix it. The one thing an electrical inspector can't do is quote a NEC sections that says it has to be fixed therefore the electrical inspector can't demand that it be fixed.
 
jwelectric said:
Not enough information to answer your question. If I found a short piece of copper between the pipes only at the water heater yes it would get removed before it would get my signature. The NEC is clear where a bonding jumper is to land and from one pipe to the other is not found anywhere in the NEC.

Now answer my question, do you require one to be installed between hot and cold at a water heater?

You are mistaken on this.
It is interesting that you choose to err on the side of danger instead of safety.

Supplemental bonding is illegal in Piedmont NC I guess. It must be a bare minimum code place.

As for me it has never come up. They bond around things without me asking in commercial and I let them.

As was noted above, I have not seen metal pipe in a new dwelling in 20 years.
 
Perhaps I am just looking at this in the wrong way. If I want to live in loophole land, 250.104(A) only requires the first 5 feet of cold water line into the building to be bonded. At that point, why not just throw out 250.104(A) altogether. It is meaningless.
 
gfretwell said:
It is interesting that you choose to err on the side of danger instead of safety.
How is enforcing the code erring on the side of danger? Please explain. You keep making statements but without explanation.
gfretwell said:
Supplemental bonding is illegal in Piedmont NC I guess. It must be a bare minimum code place.
Where is this coming from? Are you saying that to install a conductor from hot to cold is somehow supplementing the bonding? Do you understand bonding at all?
gfretwell said:
As for me it has never come up. They bond around things without me asking in commercial and I let them. As was noted above, I have not seen metal pipe in a new dwelling in 20 years.
Last time I looked this was the residential forum the commercial forum is a little higher up on the page.When you did see it or should you see it tomorrow would you require the bond between the hot and cold at the water heater? Come on now it isn’t too hard to answer it only takes a yes or a no.

gfretwell said:
Perhaps I am just looking at this in the wrong way. If I want to live in loophole land, 250.104(A) only requires the first 5 feet of cold water line into the building to be bonded.
I guess you answered one of my questions with this statement. It is obvious that you don’t have any knowledge about bonding and the bonding requirements found in the NEC. The first five feet that is used as a conductor to the underground metal water pipe is not in Part V but is in Part III of 250.250.68© (1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

Does Florida have continuing education for inspectors? Maybe a few classes would help.

gfretwell said:
At that point, why not just throw out 250.104(A) altogether. It is meaningless.
Well at least you are beginning to learn. In today’s market 250.104(A) has very little meaning unless there is a complete metal water piping system installed and as you pointed out they are rare. The bonding of hot too cold at a water heater has always been meaningless except in the minds of a few that somehow see it as doing something that it could never accomplish.
 
You summed it up in the last slur. You think there is no reason to bond water piping systems beyond the first non conductive part. Why bother at all then?

OK I am out of this.
 
And I was going to jump in and try to calm things down. Neither of you are changing each others mind, and it is starting to get a bit nasty. So if you have anything new to add, without the jabs, feel free, otherwise, let it go.
 
jwelectric posted all of this:

This is the easiest way for a code enforcement official to get his butt called to the carpet should they run into the right contractor. Let me be clear, I am one of those contractors. How was that for my first post?

When an inspector writes on their inspection report, “in my opinion” I will usually throw it in the trash and continue as though he had written nothing.

I promise that this would be one mad inspector before the sun goes down or maybe even one mad unemployed person.

As far as the inspector’s opinion, I have an opinion also and both of us we also have something else, and both stink. I am in business to make money not to discuss the opinions of how an installation is to be done.

Is this site a joke or something?

As an electrical inspector I hang my head in shame. It hurts my heart deeply that there are people out there that have the public’s safety in their hands that has no clue of what they are doing. They think that if they can do 30 inspections a day they have accomplished something special when the truth of the matter is, if they do only one inspection correctly then they have accomplished something.

As a contractor I say the same thing I have been saying for 45 years. Inspectors are the biggest joke that has ever been pulled on the public. It would be my guess that less than 10% of the inspectors out there today are qualified to do what they get paid for.

Being a certified electrical inspector in no way makes someone qualified. In some cases an electrical inspector is the least qualified on a job.

I was just trying to point out just how un-qualified most electrical inspectors are.

The sad part is these same folks are getting paid for my safety and have no clue at all of what they are doing.

Mr. Fretwell, do you realize what you are saying sometimes when you post or do you just post what comes to mind?

Come on now stop with the silly post and try as hard as you can to support you listing comments.

and the reason that you will never be able to compete with me when it comes to the electrical code

Are you wanting to get married or something?

My answer is no even if you promise to sleep face down.

So you already knew that I would not marry you even if you did sleep face down.

I know full well that we ain’t getting together now. Wanting all these men like that what is going on with him?

Five days and six replys. I suppose that some could take this to mean that there are many electrical inspectors that already know it all and have no room for learning any thing more.

Of course I already know that the world is full of electrical inspectors that claim they know far more than those charged with the writing of the codes and some will even start calling the compliant work substandard in order to prove just how smart they are.

Two things come to mind. Most code enforcement officials at some point get the “GOD” syndrome and think that they can make the rules to fit their opinions.

dumb :butt electrical inspectors that has seen something they think is a good idea and want to keep seeing it. They form some dumb idea in their head and claim it is the intent of the code without doing one second of research.

This is due to the lousy complacent inspection department not because it is legal.

Most code officials think that the people they are addressing are stupid.

He should have lost his ability to inspect. In my opinion he is not worthy to work at a car wash.

I would venture so far as to say that I have forgotten more than a some code enforcement officials will know in their entire life
Is this a person worth listening to? I can't speak for you, but I am done with him.
 
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fatboy said:
Back on point, or don't post!
Sit down fatboy....this needs to be done....you leave his nasty comments out there with out complaining so you shouldn't get excited if I take him on.
 
No you sit down, I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

Yes, there way to much nasty being thrown around, that's why EVERONE needs to back off and chill out. Keep comments related to the post, leave the attacks out, this means EVERYONE.
 
= = =

Maybe close and lock the topic ?.......Move on to another topic ?

= = =
 
Fat chance fatboy. You can sit on your hands and wait for the next time.

I come to the forum for fun mostly.

Insults interrupt my fun.

Ask yourself if the forum needs more or less of that behavior.

Ask yourself if others must share your sentiments.

Ask yourself if qouting someone is an attack.

Whatever you think, I'll not be silent
 
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To stay on topic and discuss this with the original poster if I am allowed.

ICE said:
We require a bonding jumper between cold and hot water pipes at the water heater on all service panel up-grades.
Would you mind posting the verbiage you use to make this requirement.It is not found in the NEC as I have pointed out with my discussion with Greg and it is not found in the IRC either. Here is the section that would require metal water pipes to be bonded by the ICC.

E3509.6 Metal water piping bonding. The metal water piping system shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper shall be sized in accordance with Table E3503.1. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
As most already know the ICC walks hand in hand with NFPA on their electrical documents.

Now show me the text you use to enforce the bonding of hot too cold at a water heater.
 
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