Building Code vs. Plumbing Code

[cda]

If I can exclude built-ins, etc. I'll be ok but I don't see anywhere in the code where it says I can do that, only "hallway, restroom, and stair enclosures".

Yep

What occupant load are you trying to get to??

What is the sq ft of the space

And how divided?? Kitchen vs dining??

Not into plumbing, but what fixture count are you trying to get to?

 

[HFisherArch]

Here goes:

Trying to get to an occupant load of 49.4 people max so we are only required one unisex restroom.

Have a total of 2,154 square footage of conditioned space (counted to exterior of studs, etc.)

Currently looking at the whole building as A3 = 30 s.f. per person. Excluding the restroom and ~4'-6" hall from entry through building to other exit gives me a square footage of roughly 1,525 s.f. which includes built-ins, floor space occupied by Kitchen Equipment, the walk-in-refer, Janitor's Closet, Storage Closets, Bar, Bar Back, etc. Seems like these spaces (Kitchen Equipment, Bar, Storage Closets, etc.) should not count towards the plumbing count.

Basically I need a maximum of 1,482 s.f. of space to qualify for 49.4 people.

The Building Department didn't like me breaking up the restaurant into Kitchen, Business, Billiards/Arcade, and Interior Dining area. They would like me to look at the whole thing as one type of space - A3. Does this sound right?

 

[cda]

""""The Building Department didn't like me breaking up the restaurant into Kitchen, Business, Billiards/Arcade, and Interior Dining area. They would like me to look at the whole thing as one type of space - A3. Does this sound right?"""

No that is one reason for table 1004

Not sure if this is current. Cbc

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b200v10/st_ca_st_b200v10_10_sec004.htm

 

[cda]

What is the kitchen vs dining sq ft breakdown

Plus sq ft of serving area

 

[HFisherArch]

I used 1004 for Occupancy to calculate Egress which is/can be a different number than the Plumbing Occupancy.

 

[HFisherArch]

Kitchen/Commercial (gross) square footage is 685.89 s.f.

Business (gross office for the business) is 195 s.f.

Billiards/Arcade (gross for arcade games and pool table) is 236.71 s.f.

Interior Dining (net - not including restroom, bar top, bar back and ~4'-0" wide hallway from front entrance through to back exit) is 409.36 s.f.

 

[cda]

Once again I do not do plumbing fixtures

Yep, using table 1004 only you are pushing 50+ in my calculations

Do you have fixed seating/ tables where you can count the number is seats in the dining area??

Waiting for someone that does plumbing to jump into this question

 

[north star]

# H #

IMO, ...**Yikes** has the correct calculations in Post # 17.

Also, ...if **HFisherArch** is trying to get to 49.4 occupants,

that rounds up to 50.

From the `13 CPC, Table A, Note # 1: "The figures shown

are based upon one fixture being the minimum required for the

number of persons indicated or any fraction thereof."

0.4 occupants would round up to the next number making the

total Occupant Load still 50.

Reduce the Dining Area number of occupants, and this all works.



# H #

 

[steveray]

Net sqft you could Shirley eliminate area taken up by permanent fixtures....At least with a reasonable department. Do you often have fistfights over a lack of fixtures in your area? Or people whizzing on the neighbors property? And I agree with NS on rounding up.

 

[Yikes]

""""The Building Department didn't like me breaking up the restaurant into Kitchen, Business, Billiards/Arcade, and Interior Dining area. They would like me to look at the whole thing as one type of space - A3. Does this sound right?"""No that is one reason for table 1004

Not sure if this is current. Cbc

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/ca/st/b200v10/st_ca_st_b200v10_10_sec004.htm

CPC 422.1 Fixture Count. Plumbing fixtures shall be provided for the type of building occupancy and in the minimum number shown in Table 422.1 [OSHPD 1,2,3 & 4 and Table 4-2]. The total occupant load and occupancy classification shall be determined in accordance with Occupant Load Factor Table A. Occupancy classification not shown in Table 422.1 shall be considered separately by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

The minimum number of fixtures shall be calculated at 50 percent male and 50 percent female based on the total occupant load. Where information submitted indicates a difference in distribution of the sexes such information shall be used in order to determine the number of fixtures for each

sex. Once the occupancy load and occupancy are determined, Table 422.1 shall be applied to determine the minimum number of plumbing fixtures required. Where applying the fixture ratios in Table 422.1 results in fractional numbers, such numbers shall be rounded to the next whole number. For multiple occupancies, fractional numbers shall be first summed and then rounded to the next whole number.

CPC Table 422.1, footnote 4: [bSC, DSA-AC, DSA-SS, DSA-SS/CC, HCD 1 & HCD 2, OSHPD 1, 2, 3 & 4] In accordance with Sections 1.8.7 and 301.2, the Authority Having Jurisdiction may approve alternative designs criteria when determining the minimum number of plumbing fixtures.

CPC Table A Occupant Load Factor footnotes:

* Any uses not specifically listed shall be based on similar uses listed in this table.

**For building or space with mixed occupancies, use appropriate occupancy group for each area (for example, a school may have an "A" occupancy for the gymnasium, a "B" occupancy for the office, an "E" occupancy for the classrooms, etc.)

Accessory areas may be excluded (for example: hallway, restroom, stair enclosure)

 

[cda]

685+236+409= 1330

1330/ 30 = 44

Plus the office

Under 49

Missing some sq ft some place?

 

[HFisherArch]

# H #0.4 occupants would round up to the next number making the

total Occupant Load still 50.

[/color]

That is what I always thought too, but the new head building official said he rounds to the nearest number, hence going for 49.4 to achieve 49. I'm finding a number of inconsistencies between different building officials in the same office.

 

[HFisherArch]

I guess my questions are two fold:

1) Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30 s.f. per person and exclude the restroom, hallways, etc. or do I break up each spacial use in the building per appropriate occupancy (Kitchen Commercial (200 s.f. p/p), Business Office (200 s.f. p/p), and Billiard & Dining (30 s.f. p/p) excluding restroom, hallways, etc.? (The second method seems more logical to me...) and

2) Can I exclude areas from my calculations that are non occupiable such as the bar top, bar back, built-in cabinets, etc.

Thanks for everyone's input!

 

[cda]

I guess my questions are two fold:1) Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30 s.f. per person and exclude the restroom, hallways, etc. or do I break up each spacial use in the building per appropriate occupancy (Kitchen Commercial (200 s.f. p/p), Business Office (200 s.f. p/p), and Billiard & Dining (30 s.f. p/p) excluding restroom, hallways, etc.? (The second method seems more logical to me...) and

2) Can I exclude areas from my calculations that are non occupiable such as the bar top, bar back, built-in cabinets, etc.

Thanks for everyone's input!

How LA calculates,,,, plus

http://ladbs.org/LADBSWeb/LADBS_Forms/InformationBulletins/IB-P-BC2014-095Plumbingfixtures.pdf

FOOD SERVICE ESTABLISHMENTS

A food establishment such as a restaurant with an area of 1500 sf or less may be considered as a business according to Footnote 2 on Table 422.1 in the LAPC, and may provide one toilet facility to be used by no more than one person at a time to serve customers and employees of both sexes per LAPC section 422.2. However, any establishment serving alcoholic beverage or having four or more employees shall provide separate toilet rooms for each sex per LABC Section 6302.4.

 

[tmurray]

I guess my questions are two fold:1) Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30 s.f. per person and exclude the restroom, hallways, etc. or do I break up each spacial use in the building per appropriate occupancy (Kitchen Commercial (200 s.f. p/p), Business Office (200 s.f. p/p), and Billiard & Dining (30 s.f. p/p) excluding restroom, hallways, etc.? (The second method seems more logical to me...) and

2) Can I exclude areas from my calculations that are non occupiable such as the bar top, bar back, built-in cabinets, etc.

Thanks for everyone's input!

Yikes' post indicates to break up the building into its uses. When we have a significant difference in the occupancy between our calculations and an applicant we just have the applicant provide their calculations. As long as it looks reasonable we will generally accept it. The only one we've ever denied was someone who based their occupancy in an office building off their current staffing levels (vacant offices and no clients in the building).

 

[north star]

$ : : $

" I guess my questions are two fold:1) Do I figure plumbing occupancy using an overall A3 Occupancy of 30 s.f. per person and exclude

the restroom, hallways, etc., or do I break up each spacial use in the building per appropriate

occupancy (Kitchen Commercial (200 s.f. p/p), Business Office (200 s.f. p/p), and Billiard & Dining

(30 s.f. p/p) excluding restroom, hallways, etc.? (The second method seems more logical to me...),

and

2) Can I exclude areas from my calculations that are non occupiable such as the bar top, bar

back, built-in cabinets, etc. "

IMO, ...Contact the AHJ of record and ask for a face-to-face meetingwith whomever is the real "decision maker"........Explain what you have,

and that you have 2 different methods of calculating the Occupant

Load........Politely ask for their guidance "in writing", so that you have

a clear path to provide the calculations of what "they" require.

Easy peasy, ...lemon squeezy !

Oh and BTW **HFisherArch**, ...if you have enjoyed your visit to our

Forum, would you also consider becoming a Sawhorse [ i.e. - a paid

subscription member ], and to regularly provide your input on here ?

Thanks !

$ : : $

 

[TJacobs]

In your situation you will end up with TWO occupant loads:

- one occupant load for exiting purposes as determined by the building code, and

- another occupant load for plumbing fixture counts based on the plumbing code.

It is the same goofiness in Illinois, except for the UBC/IAPMO stuff.

 

[ADAguy]

This has turned into a real Rubic's cube. If I read correctly you measured the square footage as outside of wall to outside of wall vs inside face. Aren't we concerned about "occupied" footage, not gross?

 

[skipharper]

The IBC Trumps the plumbing code-ANY plumbing code.