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Building collapse// concert fire // History repeats, repeats, repeats

So are we at least killing less people, than in the past???

Is that a good "measuring stick"??????????






In 1876, fire claimed the lives of at least 278 civilians at the Brooklyn Theater in New York. In 1903, fire struck the Iroquois Theater in Chicago, killing at least 602 innocent civilians. In 1908, the Rhoads Opera House fire in Boyertown, PA, claimed 171 lives. In 1940, 209 civilians were tragically lost in the Rhythm Club fire in Natchez, MS. In 1942, fire tore through the Cocoanut Grove nightclub in Boston, killing 492. In 1978, 165 civilians were lost at the Beverly Hills Super Club in Southgate, KY. In 1990, 85 civilians were killed at the MGM Grand Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas, NV. Also in 1990, an arsonist set fire to the Happy Land Social Club, killing 87 civilians in the Bronx, NY. In 2003, the Station Night Club claimed 100 lives in West Warwick, RI. And most recently, in December 2016, the Ghost Ship warehouse fire in Oakland, CA, claimed the lives of 36 civilians.
 
tmurry Maybe it's different in Canada but around here the Property Maintenance Code or Fire Codes are not adopted so we have no power in doing anything about neglected buildings..
 
So are we at least killing less people, than in the past???

Is that a good "measuring stick"??????????

In 1876, fire claimed the lives of at least 278 civilians at the Brooklyn Theater in New York. In 1903, fire struck the Iroquois Theater in Chicago, killing at least 602 innocent civilians. In 1908, the Rhoads Opera House fire in Boyertown, PA, claimed 171 lives. In 1940, 209 civilians were tragically lost in the Rhythm Club fire in Natchez, MS. In 1942, fire tore through the Cocoanut Grove nightclub in Boston, killing 492. In 1978, 165 civilians were lost at the Beverly Hills Super Club in Southgate, KY. In 1990, 85 civilians were killed at the MGM Grand Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas, NV. Also in 1990, an arsonist set fire to the Happy Land Social Club, killing 87 civilians in the Bronx, NY. In 2003, the Station Night Club claimed 100 lives in West Warwick, RI. And most recently, in December 2016, the Ghost Ship warehouse fire in Oakland, CA, claimed the lives of 36 civilians.

Note the common denominator is that they are all some kind of rock music venues, what isn't said is that drugs invariably are used in these concerts, some of these rock music performances actually use fireworks indoors as part of their performance. If you try to ban these types of performances you will just drive them further underground into perhaps more unsafe structures. An exception to this is the 1908 Rhoads Opera House fire, it was a play being performed when a kerosene lamp was knocked over:

Wikipedia said:
The "Rhoads Opera House" was not a structure normally described as an opera house. It was a three story commercial brick building which contained a hardware store and bank on its first floor, an auditorium ( the "opera house" ) and offices on its second floor, and several meeting rooms and offices on its third floor. The auditorium was a rental facility made available for public and private events such as business meetings, lectures, school graduations and public entertainment events. The auditorium included a small stage located at the back end of the auditorium. It is doubtful that any opera was ever performed on this stage.¹

The Oakland mayor has issued an order protecting residents from eviction by mean old fire or building inspectors for 5 days after giving notice of entry, I don't think much can be done to clean up these venues in 5 days, but as I've said the main concern in Oakland is eviction and not safety. Furthermore, Oakland does not want to change, it wants to maintain it's 'diversity'.

Mercury News said:
“There didn’t use to be three-block long homeless encampments near downtown Oakland,” said María Poblet, executive director of local nonprofit Causa Justa/Just Cause. “If you talk to people who are living in tents, who are living on the streets, who are living on a friend’s couch, a lot of them were housed very recently. …The crisis is pushing people into the streets, literally.”

And Oakland’s residents of color are fleeing. Between 1990 and 2011, the percentage of African-Americans living in the city dropped from 43 to 26, according to a report by Causa Justa, compiled with data from the Alameda County Public Health Department.

The Airbnb controversies in both Oakland and San Francisco are taking place against a backdrop of broader tension between the growing tech industry and traditional communities. In San Francisco, activists have organized several protests over the years blocking the buses that shuttle tech workers between the city and the South Bay; the ubiquitous tech buses have become a symbol of the area’s income inequality. And a handful of San Francisco supervisors last year tried and failed to place a measure on the November ballot that would have imposed an extra tax on tech companies.

The Airbnb controversies in both Oakland and San Francisco are taking place against a backdrop of broader tension between the growing tech industry and traditional communities. In San Francisco, activists have organized several protests over the years blocking the buses that shuttle tech workers between the city and the South Bay; the ubiquitous tech buses have become a symbol of the area’s income inequality. And a handful of San Francisco supervisors last year tried and failed to place a measure on the November ballot that would have imposed an extra tax on tech companies.²


¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhoads_Opera_House_fire
² http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/16/oakland-airbnb-issue-highlights-citys-gentrification-fears/
 
Two forward thinking interesting ideas:::



1. . Under the proposal, companies that monitor residential buildings would have to notify the fire department immediately if they notice any communication failures.

http://wwlp.com/2017/01/17/holyoke-...e-ordinances-after-deadly-new-years-day-fire/


2. Additionally, City Councilor Gladys Lebron-Martinez is proposing a change that would require residential buildings to get inspected for health and other safety codes before being granted a permit.

http://wwlp.com/2017/01/17/holyoke-...e-ordinances-after-deadly-new-years-day-fire/
 
Note the common denominator is that they are all some kind of rock music venues, what isn't said is that drugs invariably are used in these concerts, some of these rock music performances actually use fireworks indoors as part of their performance. If you try to ban these types of performances you will just drive them further underground into perhaps more unsafe structures. An exception to this is the 1908 Rhoads Opera House fire, it was a play being performed when a kerosene lamp was knocked over:
In the 1978 Beverly Hills Supper Club, John Davidson was singing that night. Not rock and not drugs. Cocktails yes. I remember that night well. A friend lost both of her parents in the fire. I was 13 and babysitting while my parents were out; ...fortunately they were not at that club.
 
Ghost Ship fire mystery: What did fire officials know and when did they know it?

One of the biggest mysteries to come out of the deadly Ghost Ship fire is why authorities didn’t do more to address safety and health concerns about a warehouse that some former residents described as a “death trap.”

Fire officials said they had no record of their inspectors or firefighters going inside the building in at least 12 years, and city building code inspectors had not for more than 30 years.

But there are growing indications that some fire officials knew of at least some of the Ghost Ship’s problems.

Walker Johnson, an Oakland artist, said he saw firefighters inside the Ghost Ship on Sept. 27, 2014, during a concert.

Johnson said he didn’t know why they were there but that it should have been clear the warehouse, where 36 people would die in a fire two years later, had serious safety issues.

“They couldn’t miss the danger of it all,” he said.

Johnson said he saw firefighters on the first floor but could not tell whether they went to the second floor during their visit.

The visit came as officials were hunting for an arsonist who had set several fires in the neighborhood, but it’s unclear whether it was connected to the search.

A spokeswoman for the city of Oakland said officials are looking into Johnson’s claims but could not confirm them at this time.

“We are still combing through records of service calls to the property from our various departments and will release those records as soon as we’re able,” she said.

One Fire Department source said firefighters did visit the building in the last two years but could not say whether any of the firefighters entered the structure. Station 13 sits about 500 feet from the Ghost Ship warehouse. The source spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Oakland officials are under growing scrutiny over why the warehouse was able to operate as an illegal housing complex for artists without inspections or action from the city.

Last week, officials said building code enforcement inspectors had not been inside the warehouse in at least 30 years despite the fact that the property and the lot next door had been the focus of nearly two dozen building code complaints or other city actions.

Oakland fire officials said Tuesday that they had no complaints in their records about the warehouse and that fire officials had not been dispatched there in the last 12 years.

Fire Chief Teresa Deloach Reed said a review of city records showed that the Fire Department never had any triggers to inspect the property because it did not receive any complaints, calls for service or permit applications.

She said a warehouse is an empty structure that would not ordinarily be subject to a Fire Department inspection. “There were no indications this was an active business,” she said.

But the city later acknowledged the owner of the warehouse had a business license for the location.

A spokeswoman for Oakland said owner Chor Ng obtained the license in 1995 to use the warehouse as rental property. Ng, who owns other properties in Oakland's Chinatown district, was up to date on city tax payments, said spokeswoman Karen Boyd.
Ng owned the warehouse through a trust and managed it and other properties through her daughter, Eva Ng. She has not returned calls and messages in recent weeks. Eva Ng told The Times the day after the Dec. 2 fire that her mother had no idea the warehouse was being used for housing.

Boyd said a business license alone would not trigger a fire inspection. An inspection would occur if an owner applied for an operating or occupancy permit, she said.

It’s becoming increasingly clear that there is some kind of disconnect between city officials and some residents over the warehouse’s problems. Several former tenants as well as neighbors have said they complained to various city agencies about filthy conditions as well as unsafe structural and electrical systems. It’s unclear why these complaints did not prompt more aggressive action.

At the time of the fire, Oakland building officials had an open investigation of the warehouse. They said an inspector attempted to examine the interior of the building but could not get in.

Typically, if inspectors couldn’t get inside, they’d come back later with a warrant to gain access, according to Oakland Councilwoman Desley Brooks.

The Oakland Police Department had also entered the building, including one such visit documented in a 2015 police report.

Fire Lt. Dan Robertson, president of the union that represents Oakland firefighters, said he constantly trains new recruits to keep an eye out for conditions that would make it tough to fight a fire, like clutter in the doorway, heavy locks on gates and bars on windows.

“I’ve been doing this for 27 years, and any structural firefighter that works for a big city that’s worth their paycheck profiles buildings all the time,” Robertson said. “We don’t necessarily need to step inside a building to know it’s going to be difficult to fight a fire.”

On his way to fight the Ghost Ship fire, a fellow firefighter told Robertson he knew the place and that it was like a maze, cluttered with obstacles. We’re going to have to get defensive early, he told Robertson.

Questions about the competence of Oakland’s building inspection agency arose five years ago. An Alameda County Grand Jury in 2011 released a scathing report accusing the city’s building services division of mismanagement and having haphazard policies about conducting building inspections.

The grand jury found the agency was riddled with “poor management, lack of leadership, and ambiguous policies and procedures.” It added that the agency had inconsistent standards on code violations and that the violation notices sent to property owners were late and hard to understand. In addition, inspectors treated property owners in an “unprofessional, retaliatory and intimidating” manner, the grand jury report stated.

Federal investigators said Tuesday they were still working to determine the cause of the deadly fire.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ghost-ship-fire-20161217-story.html
 
LA Times article above said:
The grand jury found the agency was riddled with “poor management, lack of leadership, and ambiguous policies and procedures.” It added that the agency had inconsistent standards on code violations and that the violation notices sent to property owners were late and hard to understand. In addition, inspectors treated property owners in an “unprofessional, retaliatory and intimidating” manner, the grand jury report stated.

Wow, a grand jury report ignored by the building department! BTW, the property owner Chor Ng held the property in trust administrated by her daughter Eva Ng, sounds like this is a retirement trust and all assets are immune from seizure or attachment, if you recall the famous OJ civil case, even though the Brown family got a sizable judgment against OJ they couldn't touch his retirement monies. It looks like the city is the only deep pockets here and that's where the attorneys will focus.

In the local paper today the editorial is indicting the city for stonewalling the paper's demands to produce records, the mayor said that she "will not scapegoat city employees in the wake of this disaster.”

East Bay Times said:
There should be no hassling over whether they’re confidential. All pre-fire records about the warehouse were public documents then and they remain so today.

It’s past time for the city to produce them, along with the other documents we seek. Yet city officials have ignored our request for records about fire inspections, calls to the Police Department for service and the 911 tapes from the night of the tragedy.

Most of what the public has learned about the months and years leading up to the fire has come from investigative journalism. Records are often the key to that. They’re often the best documentation of who knew what and when.

While Schaaf has promised her own “very thorough and methodical investigation so we can discern what in fact happened,” that’s not a substitute for public access to records.

Especially when Schaaf has hedged her promise by declaring “we will not scapegoat city employees in the wake of this disaster.” No one is looking to unfairly blame workers for the fault of others, but those responsible should be held accountable.¹

It appears that the mayor is illegally protecting employees.


¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/04/editorial-oakland-must-turn-over-ghost-ship-records-now/
 
Fire fighters, in my experience, generally do not know the fire or building codes. They know how to fight fires. Expecting them to be able to spot violations is an unreasonable expectation. A fire prevention officer, yes, but fire fighters....that doesn't hold water for me.
 
Fire fighters, in my experience, generally do not know the fire or building codes. They know how to fight fires. Expecting them to be able to spot violations is an unreasonable expectation. A fire prevention officer, yes, but fire fighters....that doesn't hold water for me.


Disagree,

Yes minute or technical stuff

But, a total mess that they see from thier station grow over years, and concerts going on.

Plus sometimes lieutenants and captains sometimes have to rotate through fire prevention, because that is where an opening is.

Plus, they do spend an whole hour in the academy on fire codes!!! Kind of like the requirement for an hour over fire codes in architect school.
 
Today's front page article about the fire:



An "intense inspector", sounds like our Tiger. The truth of the incompetence of the Oakland Fire Department is that the city has long used it as a vehicle for minority employment, the color of the skin and the gender of the employees means more to them than the quality or the employees.

The "North Hills Community Association" is a group formed after the Oakland Hills fire in 1991 that formed a special assessment district voting to pay more taxes for better fire protection, only to have those funds used to pay the absurd pensions of retired firemen.


¹ http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/...two-years-complaining-about-fire-inspections/



That and their fire chief does not have a clue
 
Disagree,

Yes minute or technical stuff

But, a total mess that they see from their station grow over years, and concerts going on.

Plus sometimes lieutenants and captains sometimes have to rotate through fire prevention, because that is where an opening is.

Plus, they do spend an whole hour in the academy on fire codes!!! Kind of like the requirement for an hour over fire codes in architect school.

I walked into a new restaurant under construction right after the local fire boys did their walkthrough. The contractor was in a great mood when he told me that they had just done their fire inspection. I said "so they told you your entrance door is swinging in the wrong direction right?". He immediately became crestfallen.

If they can't tell a door swings in the wrong direction, why would I expect them to be able to see other violations. Maybe it's just our local FFs. We don't do fire prevention locally...
 
That and their fire chief does not have a clue
CDA:

You can't say that, the chief is in two protected classes, she's black and she's a woman, say anything, especially in Oakland California, and they'll be rioting in the streets screaming racist and misogynist, they've been screaming racist for years but now they've learned to say misogynist, homophobic, and xenophobic, even if they can't spell them or understand what they mean. Oakland employs it's civil servants based upon an elusive diversity standard so that the city workforce mirrors the population as a whole. Americans have become screaming idiots, but that's okay since idiots are now a protected class under our all time favorite ADA.
 
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The chief has disappeared!

Mercury News said:
OAKLAND — Embattled Fire Chief Teresa Deloach Reed, who has been heavily criticized since 36 people died in the Dec. 2 Ghost Ship warehouse blaze, is on leave from the department tending to a sick relative, according to a fire official.

Deputy Chief Mark Hoffmann said he was told Reed was out due to a sick family member, and that he and Deputy Chief Darin White have been rotating as interim fire chief. Reed has been checking in with the department during her absence, Hoffmann said.

Oakland firefighters union Vice President Zac Unger said that the rank-and-file has not heard a reason for her absence and she’s been gone for weeks.

“All I will say is we’ve had no official notification that she’s gone but we haven’t seen her in weeks,” Unger said. “We have also had no official notification of when she’s coming back.”

Each morning, City Administrator Sabrina Landreth, who has been overseeing the administrative duties of the Oakland Police Department since June, has met with fire administrators in meetings normally held by Chief Reed, Unger said.

Mayor Libby Schaaf’s spokesperson Erica Derryck declined to comment. Reed’s executive assistant Angela Robison Pinon said “the city does not comment on the leave status of employees.”

The chief’s departure was apparently near the time that this newspaper reported on Jan. 20 that Reed went on a 10-minute rant at a Oakland hills fire protection meeting, which included audio with the chief threatening to sue a homeowner for defamation and accusing the citizen’s board of “bias” against her.

Meanwhile, Deputy Chief White is a finalist for the open fire chief job in Carson City, while Oakland’s other second-in-charge, Hoffmann, has worked for more than three decades and has maxed out his pension and could leave any day, Unger said.

“It’s not inconceivable that in one week we’ll have vacancies in all three top jobs in this department and I have no idea if there’s a plan to deal with it,” Unger said.

The Oakland firefighters union has been at odds with Reed frequently during her five-year tenure in Oakland.¹

"Tending to a sick relative" is code for "disappeared", just like "retiring to spend time with family" is code for "getting out before the indictments come down".


¹ http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/07/oakland-fire-chief-teresa-deloach-reed-out-on-leave/
 
Fire fighters, in my experience, generally do not know the fire or building codes. They know how to fight fires. Expecting them to be able to spot violations is an unreasonable expectation. A fire prevention officer, yes, but fire fighters....that doesn't hold water for me.

Our local fire department has been going into our new projects similar to responding to the scene except without the gear. We have had them walking through during framing and rough in and prior to final. They use this as a training opportunity. The chief and fire marshal are both reasonable at the fire and building codes but all of the firefighters are not. Our local also still relies some on volunteers. I personally hope that the fire fighters know a great deal about how to fight fires and rescue people but to not have to know in detail all of the provisions of the building code. I think they should have a general knowledge of the fire codes and other specific NFPA codes.
 
Finally there is a whistle-blower in the Oakland Fire Department:
East Bay Times said:
But the biggest shock to firefighter Zac Unger came a week later. He filed a California Public Records Act request to his own department for 2014 and 2015 inspection records of properties on Elverton Drive. What he received led Unger to wonder whether the documents he received were created to appease his curiosity.

While the 2014 records included copies of inspection reports filled out by firefighters on scene, there were no such records for 2015. Instead, the department released six puzzling documents labeled fire clearance certificates, which Unger had never seen before, dated the day after he submitted his public records request.

The documents, addressed to homeowners, claimed five properties had passed inspections a month earlier. The sixth claimed a property had passed inspection in early 2014 but informed the homeowner they were cleared through the 2015 fire season, despite no annual inspection that year. Although unsigned, the forms listed the author as former Oakland fire Marshal James Williams, who had left the department two years earlier.¹

I would encourage all of you who work in corrupt fire or building departments to become whistle-blowers, in California anyway we have a whistle-blower protection law:

California State Auditor said:
The California Whistleblower Protection Act authorizes the California State Auditor to receive complaints from state employees and members of the public who wish to report an improper governmental activity. An "improper governmental activity" is defined as any action by a state agency or any action by a state employee directly related to state government that violates the law, violates an Executive Order of the Governor, violates a Rule of Court, violates the State Administrative Manual or State Contracting Manual, is economically wasteful, or involves gross misconduct, incompetency, or inefficiency. The complaints received by the State Auditor shall remain confidential, and the identity of the complainant may not be revealed without the permission of the complainant, except to an appropriate law enforcement agency conducting a criminal investigation.²

Don't worry about getting fired, if they try that you'll probably retire with many millions in damages.


¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02...t-did-administration-cover-up-near-miss-fire/

² http://www.bsa.ca.gov/hotline
 
If this kind of crap was going on in my jurisdiction, I would be the first one to blow the whistle. This kind of laziness and disregard for public safety gives all public servants a bad name.
 
Should because some of the codes are designed for thier safety and make thier work easier
 
If this kind of crap was going on in my jurisdiction, I would be the first one to blow the whistle. This kind of laziness and disregard for public safety gives all public servants a bad name.
I think two things are going on:

1) Codes have exploded well beyond health and safety into social engineering and political objectives making them harder to understand and apply, the objective also has switched from health and safety to bringing in money.

2) Public servants are hired on the basis of diversity and filling quotas is more important than hiring the most competent people for the jobs,
 
The city has finally released the files under threat of litigation:

East Bay Times said:
OAKLAND — In the two and half years before a deadly warehouse fire killed 36 people, Oakland police made regular visits to the Ghost Ship artists’ collective. They investigated an illegal rave, a pistol-whipping incident, thefts, reports of child abuse, a stabbing, threats with guns, drug sales, illegal housing, storing stolen property, allegations of rape, even reports of people barricaded inside.

Records released Wednesday show that police visited the building and associated properties 35 times between mid-2014 and the Dec. 2 fire. Yet never did officers take action to shutter the dangerously cluttered, illegally converted warehouse — or make referrals to other city departments empowered to shut it down.

The 600 pages of records, which Oakland released Wednesday under threat of a lawsuit by this news organization, tell a story of frequent and often tense interactions between Ghost Ship proprietor Derick Almena, his artist tenants, and police, fire, public works and building department personnel. Only some of these contacts have been previously reported.
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The new records also show that the city was well familiar with the two-building complex and adjoining vacant lot owned by Chor Ng even before the Ghost Ship came to be: Police, fire, public works and building department employees had visited at least 245 times since 1988, most of them after 2007.¹

Of course the city building inspectors were probably too busy enforcing the heights of handicap signs.


¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/08/oakland-warehouse-fire-city-releases-thousands-of-records/
 
Oh **** CONARB you have doomed another thread

Don't you think that inspectors will want to know where they are going wrong?

In a better day Oakland inspectors were my buddies, I went to their retirement parties and invited them to my builders' association dinners, at least two always moved my appointments to lunch time so we could go to lunch after. I recall once I had to leave and left a concrete pour on a warehouse to my foreman, I came back that afternoon and since they were pouring I said to my foreman: "You're pouring so Warren signed you off with no problems?" He said: "No, he said go ahead and pour but tell Dick I'll be here at 12:00 sharp tomorrow to sign the card." We got along and everything got done to code.

You've got to realize that a builder has owners and architects on one side trying to get as much out of him as possible without paying for it, on the other side he has tradesmen and subcontractors trying to milk as much out of him as possible, the inspectors are in the middle with me usually my only friends on the job.
 
The city has finally released the files under threat of litigation:



Of course the city building inspectors were probably too busy enforcing the heights of handicap signs.


¹ http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/02/08/oakland-warehouse-fire-city-releases-thousands-of-records/


Wouldn't it be easy to require all police officers / fire fighters to have a basic course on property maintenance as part of their continuing training? It wouldn't take a couple hours or so, but run them through what they should be looking for while they're doing their regular jobs. I think it'd help, especially in larger municipalities who have understaffed code enforcement dept's. Public Works guys should have the same course, too. Any muni. employee who is out and about the streets everyday ought to be able to call the code enforcement office and tell them about a jacked up house/business/warehouse whatever.

If you ask them, they're too busy. I know. But if the goal is to prevent this kind of stuff from happening, and to keep the city clean/up to code, shouldn't all the different dept's work together to make that happen?
 
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