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Building Permit Card Expiration

IrishEyes

ADMIN
Staff member
Joined
Jan 15, 2024
Messages
32
Location
PA
Hello everyone!

I have a question for you in regards to building permit expiration dates on the permit card. Do you list your issued date and expiration date on your permit cards? The expiration date is technically only valid on the date of issuance because as inspections come in and they pass, the expiration date gets extended by another 180 days. My concern is an inspector going on a job site, seeing an expiration date that is no longer valid, and he then fails an inspection incorrectly. The expiration date is always a moving target so I would rather eliminate confusion, if possible.

What are your thoughts?
 
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as inspections come in and they pass, the expiration date gets extended
Are you sure that they must pass inspection?
I had a request for an inspection that stated “location”. When I arrived I found the outline of the proposed addition in the grass using white flour. The owner pointed to the box in the job card that was labeled “ LOCATION”. I explained that the form work is what gets inspected for location. Then I extended the permits. I probably gave him six months too.

Expiring permits was pretty low on my list of things to do. I never expired furnace and water heater permits.
 
Are you sure that they must pass inspection?
I had a request for an inspection that stated “location”. When I arrived I found the outline of the proposed addition in the grass using white flour. The owner pointed to the box in the job card that was labeled “ LOCATION”. I explained that the form work is what gets inspected for location. Then I extended the permits. I probably gave him six months too.

Expiring permits was pretty low on my list of things to do. I never expired furnace and water heater permits.
In our jurisdiction, we allow partial approval to extend a permit as it is deemed a 'pass,', but any failed or canceled inspection will not extend the permit expiration date per the IBC/FBC.

When it comes to your statement, "I never expired furnace and water heater permits," I don't understand what you mean. By code, if work does not begin for 180 days or they don't pass an inspection, the permit expires, period. You have the ability to extend it for only a certain amount of time, but it automatically expires. Every system I ever worked in automatically expires permits.
 
As the burden of proof is generally on the municipality...We would have to prove they did no work for 180 days....Not worth it....Our IRC is now specific to inspections occurring every 6 months...

105.5​

Every permit issued shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the time the work is commenced. The building official is authorized to grant, in writing, one or more extensions of time, for periods of not more than 180 days each. The extensions shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause shall be demonstrated.
 
Expiring permits was pretty low on my list of things to do. I never expired furnace and water heater permits.

The department I work for didn't, either. Now we have a new Town Manager who is actively looking for reasons to criticize the Building Department. We have over 600 open applications, dating back years, and an equal number of open permits also going back years. So now we're stuck doing damage control because of people who have been gone for many years.
 
When it comes to your statement, "I never expired furnace and water heater permits," I don't understand what you mean.
Gas fired appliances are intrinsically dangerous. I would hound the contractors and owners until they got them inspected and/or corrected violations.

The following is a post from my past:

Circa 1999. I was a one man building department in a southern California city with a population of 46,000. I was the permit clerk, plan checker and inspector…oh I was also stuck with code enforcement. The office was under a contract from Los Angeles County. I had a great deal of autonomy and not much County oversight. In fact, I might not see anyone from the County for months on end.

Well as happens in any building department, the permit file tends to clog with permits that never got an inspection. Periodically, I would pull those files and attempt to complete an inspection rather than expire the permit. It happened a lot with water heaters and furnaces. The contractors would mail the owner a notice telling the owner to request an inspection.

Owners would ignore that. It was especially common when the water heater was purchased from a big box retailer such as Sears or Home Depot. The owners assumed that the store that installed the unit is professional enough that there is no need for an inspection. Of course that’s speculation on my part and there’s a host of reasons why the owners ignore the notice.

Patterns emerged and two contractors in particular had a boatload of dead permits for water heaters. Contractor one had a dozen or so. Contractor two was closer to twenty. I sent them a list of addresses and cordially requested that they arrange an inspection. I made it clear that the responsibility for the inspection fell on the contractor, not the owner. Neither company reacted. I sent a less cordial letter.

Contractor one was exclusive to Sears. The contractor answered the phone, “Sears.” I contacted Sears HQ in Chicago. I threatened to institute proceedings against the corporation for contracting without a license in the state of California. That got the local contractor to jump on it.

Contractor two… well I couldn’t pin down which store he got his leads from. His permit runner came in with the usual fistful of applications after a store had a sale on water heaters. I took the applications and confirmed that the water heaters had been installed. Now I had them where I wanted them. Instead of issuing permits, I levied fines for working without permits. I had a prepared list of fines for the addresses that had expired permits. I gave all of that to the permit runner. The total was over $2000.00.

As you can imagine, the contractor was miffed. So much so that he demanded a meeting with the city attorney. The meeting had a rocky beginning. The contractor’s initial salvo was the statement that if the fine was not waived he would tell Home Depot, Lowes and Sears that he was done working in our city.

I managed to take the temperature down and I convinced the contractor that inspections are to his benefit. After all, he’s paid for the permit so why not follow the rules. He calmed and agreed that inspections are his chore to complete and he promised to meet his obligations going forward. Then he asked about waiving the fines.

I thought for just a moment and then I said, “I can waive the fines. And I will waive the fines if you promise to stop working in our city.” He paid the fines.

It is worth noting that as the city attorney and I were headed to the meeting I told him that I made up the fines… there was nothing to back it up… pulled out of thin air as it were. He said, not to worry, the contractor won’t know that.

You could say that's Tiger Code at it's finest.
 
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Gas fired appliances are intrinsically dangerous. I would hound the contractors and owners until they got them inspected and/or corrected violations.
So this is how we handle expired permits.

1) We send it to Code Enforcement (they work under me anyway)
2) Code Enforcement determines if any work was done.
3) If no work was done, the permits are voided with a note that no work was done.
4) If work was done, we contact the owner if the contractor blows us off to schedule an inspection so we can close it out or place a Notice of Violation to the contractor.
5) If expired and work was done, they have to pay a fee t reinstate the permit and I normally only give 30 days.
6) If we still don't get compliance, we start a code case against the owner who is ultimately responsible.
 
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This is definitely a problem in all the jurisdictions I've worked in.

Just a big pile of permits that haven't been closed out. HVAC and water heaters the worse. Covid also caused some backlog.
6) If we still don't get compliance, we start a code case against the owner who is ultimately responsible.
Jar,
How many of those cases (Guess) do you have?
Do you have court fees when you do this?
During covid, did you allow photo's?
 
Hello everyone!

I have a question for you in regards to building permit expiration dates on the permit card. Do you list your issued date and expiration date on your permit cards?

There is only one of our partner municipalities that has time limits on their permits. I wish the province would do something on that front.
If *only* there were someone here who had the power to do that....
 
So this is how we handle expired permits.

1) We send it to Code Enforcement (they work under me anyway)
2) Code Enforcement determines if any work was done.
3) If no work was done, the permits are voided with a note that no work was done.
4) If work was done, we contact the owner if the contractor blows us off to schedule an inspection so we can close it out or place a Notice of Violation to the contractor.
5) If expired and work was done, they have to pay a fee t reinstate the permit and I normally only give 30 days.
6) If we still don't get compliance, we start a code case against the owner who is ultimately responsible.
You have a manageable number of addresses in your city. LA County has a about 10,000 times as many. If I sent cases to code enforcement the end result was a lien of $1200 against the property. There is no effort to collect the lien until the property sells so I get nowhere close to the resolution that I need. I screw with them until they get it done. I cajole, threaten and try to convince them that it is for their own good. When I tell them, "Ya know, you need electricity to run that furnace." More than one manager has asked if I threatened to pull the power on an address. I can truthfully say, "maybe."
 
There is only one of our partner municipalities that has time limits on their permits. I wish the province would do something on that front.
If *only* there were someone here who had the power to do that....

For the U.S., the ICC model IBC and IRC establish a limit of 180 days and say the permit "shall" become invalid if work is terminated or suspended for more than 180 days. So it's built into the code unless a jurisdiction mucks with Chapter 1 when adopting.
 
For the U.S., the ICC model IBC and IRC establish a limit of 180 days and say the permit "shall" become invalid if work is terminated or suspended for more than 180 days. So it's built into the code unless a jurisdiction mucks with Chapter 1 when adopting.
Nothing expires until we say it is expired. I have found plenty of open permits that are years old because nobody on our end finaled the permit in our records. That "shall" ignores the human element and my approach was always I shall do as I see fit.
 
Nothing expires until we say it is expired. I have found plenty of open permits that are years old because nobody on our end finaled the permit in our records. That "shall" ignores the human element and my approach was always I shall do as I see fit.

California Building Code:

[A] 105.5 Expiration


Every permit issued shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized on the site by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the time the work is commenced. The building official is authorized to grant, in writing, one or more extensions of time, for periods not more than 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause demonstrated.
 
This is definitely a problem in all the jurisdictions I've worked in.

Just a big pile of permits that haven't been closed out. HVAC and water heaters the worse. Covid also caused some backlog.

Jar,
How many of those cases (Guess) do you have?
Do you have court fees when you do this?
During covid, did you allow photo's?

  • Typically 70% of our expired permits turn into code cases which are then quickly resolved.
  • We did have thousands of expire permits and right now average about 33 at any given time.
  • During covid, we did not allow photos. Inspectors were masked up.
  • There are not court fees per se, however, if found guilty, we have a minimum of a $250 cost of prosecution charge and $250 per day fine for each day the violation exists.
 
You have a manageable number of addresses in your city. LA County has a about 10,000 times as many. If I sent cases to code enforcement the end result was a lien of $1200 against the property. There is no effort to collect the lien until the property sells so I get nowhere close to the resolution that I need. I screw with them until they get it done. I cajole, threaten and try to convince them that it is for their own good. When I tell them, "Ya know, you need electricity to run that furnace." More than one manager has asked if I threatened to pull the power on an address. I can truthfully say, "maybe."
Well, that is an LA county issue. The City of Boca Raton and West Palm Beach, each assign one of their code enforcement officers full time to expired permits which is a never ending job, but at least they are moving in the right direction.
 
Nothing expires until we say it is expired. I have found plenty of open permits that are years old because nobody on our end finaled the permit in our records. That "shall" ignores the human element and my approach was always I shall do as I see fit.
That is BS. What you guys choose to do and what is required by code/statute are two different things.
 
That is BS. What you guys choose to do and what is required by code/statute are two different things.

The problem is that the code (which is an administrative regulation adopted pursuant to a statute -- meaning it's law) says a permit "shall" become invalid after 180 days if the work is suspended or abandoned. Legally, "shall" is mandatory language. Legally, those old permits expire whether or not the department updates its records. NOT updating the records leads to the kind of issues my department inherited from previous staff who didn't do their jobs. The old permits ARE expired -- but the records don't show then as expired.
 
California Building Code:
That is BS. What you guys choose to do and what is required by code/statute are two different things.
I know that you guys mean well but you don’t understand the realities that I deal with. There was a time when inspectors were rotated from one area to another. I inherited file cabinets with more old “Expired” permits than active permits. Where is the benefit in expiring permits instead of getting them resolved?

The code does say shall. The codes are full of shalls . Do you always follow that particular letter of that law? Does the word shall put your brain in idle? Wait a minute here you guys are Jeff and the Yankee and you do.
 
I know that you guys mean well but you don’t understand the realities that I deal with. There was a time when inspectors were rotated from one area to another. I inherited file cabinets with more old “Expired” permits than active permits. Where is the benefit in expiring permits instead of getting them resolved?

The code does say shall. The codes are full of shalls . Do you always follow that particular letter of that law? Does the word shall put your brain in idle? Wait a minute here you guys are Jeff and the Yankee and you do.

I'm not a lawyer, so I won't even attempt to discuss the legal issues that might attach to "resolving" a permit that doesn't exist.
 
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