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Business on the second floor

Discussion in 'Accessibility' started by Brad1424, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Brad1424

    Brad1424 Registered User

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    I currently own a two story commercial building. The building is an old 1900's building, so obviously there is no elevator. I am wanting to open an indoor batting cage facility on the second floor, since it is 3000 sqft of wide open space. My concern is there is only a stair way access to the second floor. Renovations will be virtually non-extant. All i would be doing is installing the poly net tunnels and pitching machines. What are my requirements to operate on the second floor? Do i need a handicap chair lift or anything. Or should i abandon the idea, because it would be just asking for ADA compliance fines? Also can i make it a private club and charge a "membership fee" and get around the ADA compliance issues?
    thanks,

    ps. i currently operate a retail store on the main floor of the building. The second floor is currently zoned residential, because there used to be apartments up there years ago.
     
  2. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Sounds like a change of use so accessibility would be required by my building code....
     
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  3. Brad1424

    Brad1424 Registered User

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    Since i would be going from Residential to commercial. I would have to comply. What options do I have besides an elevator?
     
  4. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    A really really long ramp.
     
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  5. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Takes money to make money....Ramp would be about 150' not knowing the story height...
     
  6. Paul Sweet

    Paul Sweet Sawhorse

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    IBC 1104.4 allows stories or mezzanines with an aggregate area of 3000 SF or less to not be connected by an accessible route.
     
  7. ADAguy

    ADAguy Registered User

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    Yes but the ADA doesn't.
    He can install A LULA.
     
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  8. Msradell

    Msradell Sawhorse

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    That only applies if the same services are available elsewhere in the bldg. obviously not the case here.
     
  9. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    There are no ADA fines. But you could get sued. There is no loop hole with membership fees. But you must comply to the building codes to get a permit.
     
  10. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    If the space were less than three thousand Sq. Ft., according to 2010 ADASAD, it does not need to be accessible. (206.2.3 Multi-Story Buildings and Facilities. exceptions)
    NOTE: This is ADA not state requirements.

    Build a Permanent portion wall blocking out a section, with NO USE, NO storage, nothing. And you will comply with the letter of the ADASAD.

    I always advocate inclusion but there are options.
     
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  11. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    If there is a basement it must be added to the aggregate area (the total of basement and 2nd floor)
     
  12. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Registered User

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    I like your suggestion however I know the fire departments usually do not like concealed spaces that this would create depending on size. I suggest you check with them also before you try to reduce the sq ft area.
     
  13. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    If you do build a wall to reduce the space, block off a little more than you think is necessary. There is more than one way to measure floor area, hate to have you block off 5 sf less than you really needed to, and then have to do it again.
    And like someone else pointed out ... ask before you do it.
     
  14. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    Rick ... why? The quoted section talks about aggregate floor size, not aggregate building size.
     
  15. mtlogcabin

    mtlogcabin Registered User

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    Exceptions:
    1. An accessible route is not required to stories, mezzanines and occupied roofs that have an aggregate area of not more than 3,000 square feet (278.7 m2) and are located above and below accessible levels.

    Aggregate areas include the floors above and below (basement)

    4. Where a two-story building or facility has one story or mezzanine with an occupant load of five or fewer persons that does not contain public use space, that story or mezzanine shall not be required to be connected by an accessible route to the story above or below.

    So how many batting cages can you fit in the space? How many people will be up there when in full use?


    Where an intended function is not listed in Table 1004.5, the building official shall establish a function based on a listed function that most nearly resembles the intended function.
    Exception: Where approved by the building official, the actual number of occupants for whom each occupied space, floor or building is designed, although less than those determined by calculation, shall be permitted to be used in the determination of the design occupant load.
     
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  16. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    I did a quick google search and found a couple of answers. One says 15x40 is the minimum, others say 55 and 70 ft long. 15x40 is 600 sf. So maybe 4 cages total allowing for circulation space and cashier station. Then maybe 4 people per cage plus the attendant ... 20 people total?
     
  17. Brad1424

    Brad1424 Registered User

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    the total sqft for the second floor is 6245sqft. the basement is another 4621sqft. So were talking almost 11,000 sqft. and i can't go over 3,000? HAHA. the basement is obviously not open to the public.
    batting cages, axe throwing, golf simulators, indoor archery range, and demolition rooms.
    here is the end goal of the project.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    If you use the IBC, you must provide an accessible route. However, the IEBC may not play out the same for you.

    Your best bet for compliance with the building codes is to rely upon IEBC Section 410.7 Exception #1.

    Be prepared to demonstrate that you cannot add the accessible route for less than 20% of the costs for the entire project. If as you have said previously, "Renovations will be virtually non-extant. All i would be doing is installing the poly net tunnels and pitching machines.", then you should be well over 20% to add a LULA, ramp, elevator, etc.

    410.7 Alterations Affecting an Area Containing a Primary Function
    Where an alteration affects the accessibility to, or contains an area of primary function, the route to the primary function area shall be accessible. The accessible route to the primary function area shall include toilet facilities and drinking fountains serving the area of primary function.
    Exceptions:

    1. The costs of providing the accessible route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the alterations affecting the area of primary function.
    2. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to windows, hardware, operating controls, electrical outlets and signs.
    3. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to mechanical systems, electrical systems, installation or alteration of fire protection systems and abatement of hazardous materials.
    4. This provision does not apply to alterations undertaken for the primary purpose of increasing the accessibility of a facility.
    5. This provision does not apply to altered areas limited to Type B dwelling and sleeping units.

    NOTE: this gets you a path to compliance with the building code and A117.1, but does not necessarily mean that you are covered under the ADA. By no means am I an expert under the ADA, but you can and may face litigation under the ADA through the DOJ.
     
    #18 Ty J., Jun 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  19. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    And as a follow up to my previous comment, be aware of the difference in code requirements for a partial and complete change of occupancy. The above noted exception limiting the improvement for an accessible route to 20% is not available where a complete change of occupancy for the building occurs.

    410.4.1 Partial Change in Occupancy
    Where a portion of the building is changed to a new occupancy classification, any alterations shall comply with Sections 410.6, 410.7 and 410.8.

    410.4.2 Complete Change of Occupancy
    Where an
    entire building undergoes a change of occupancy, it shall comply with Section 410.4.1 and shall have all of the following accessible features:
    1. At least one accessible building entrance.
    2. At least one accessible route from an accessible building entrance to primary function areas.
    3. Signage complying with Section 1111 of the International Building Code.
    4. Accessible parking, where parking is being provided.
    5. At least one accessible passenger loading zone, when loading zones are provided.
    6. At least one accessible route connecting accessible parking and accessible passenger loading zones to an accessible entrance.
    Where it is technically infeasible to comply with the new construction standards for any of these requirements for a change of group or occupancy, the above items shall conform to the requirements to the maximum extent technically feasible.
    Exception: The accessible features listed in Items 1 through 6 are not required for an accessible route to Type B units.

    PRIMARY FUNCTION. A primary function is a major activity for which the facility is intended. Areas that contain a primary function include, but are not limited to, the customer services lobby of a bank, the dining area of a cafeteria, the meeting rooms in a conference center, as well as offices and other work areas in which the activities of the public accommodation or other private entity using the facility are carried out. Mechanical rooms, boiler rooms, supply storage rooms, employee lounges or locker rooms, janitorial closets, entrances, corridors and restrooms are not areas containing a primary function.
     
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  20. Tim Mailloux

    Tim Mailloux Registered User

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    Based on the updated project description (batting cages, axe throwing, demolition rooms, etc.) this sounds like an entertainment complex. Not only is there a partial change of use going on here, but it’s to an assembly occupancy. Doubtful the existing second floor has sprinklers, and if it does have sprinklers what are the odds it’s a full NFPA-13 system ? Not likely... sprinklers will be required under a partial change of use in the IEBC.


    So we are looking at adding or upgrading the sprinkler system on the entire floor. We are also looking at a massive occupant load increase with the new assembly occupancy, new expanded toilet facilities , major HVAC upgrades. and probable egress issues off the floor. Bottom line the elevator is the least of your issues, you need to hire an architect to evaluate the space and actual scope of work to make this all happen before you get to deep into this.


    What state are you in?
     
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