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Butcher shop to 'restaurant'.

J

jjd3

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2010
Messages
3
I have a butcher shop here and they currently sell deli sandwiches to go, of course, but they now want to add 4 tables to 'dine-in' the shop. This makes them a 'restaurant' by our code and I am wondering when a public restroom is required.I reckon the use(s) is M and A-2. I'm paging through now but I just know one of you guys know this...thanks

....Jj
 
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Not me but welcome to the board of popular opinion

Lookl like if open to public would be required, what code are you under and edition???

What do you do for a living?????
 
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If the occupant load is less than 50, it would be a B occupancy, not an A-2 (Section 303.1, Exception 1). Public restrooms would be required per Chapter 29. I don't think I would call it an M occupancy.
 
JJD3,

Welcome to the forum.

You wouldn't be from Oklahoma or Arkansas, would you? It really helps us to help you, if we know; at least; what State and which codes are adapted.

This should be interesting,

Uncle Bob
 
High Desert said:
If the occupant load is less than 50, it would be a B occupancy, not an A-2 (Section 303.1, Exception 1). Public restrooms would be required per Chapter 29. I don't think I would call it an M occupancy.
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High Desert nailed it
 
Welcome jjd3.

I think you'll find a pretty good concensus on the B occupancy based on the occupant load and the exception. If the Butcher shop was previously classified as an M, the change in occupancy may trigger some requirements. And as UB points out, knowing where you are, what code and year, all help us help each other.
 
Well, here goes.... Public restrooms were required in the Butcher shop! Why didn't they already have them? See Ch. 29, 2902.4, specifically. All business open to the public require public restrooms!!!
 
We are in Missouri and we use the 2003 ICC codes. I posted w/o looking at all yesterday (being late and feeling lazy) but have found the applicable section(s) I need today. Thanks all. and...there is a restroom in back.

I will use the B classif> .. new question: can I use only the customer occupied area to figure that occ load and; the "1 per 25 for the first 50", does that mean 1-25, or if they have an occ Load of 15...does it still need the restroom?This is a small older building and they are utilizing only half of it and most of that area is cooler and meat cases, 1 rest-room and a mech room. He would like to do something to help his business in this economic climate and I am just trying the swing the gate in his favor if I can do so and be legal.
 
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"There is a restroom in back..." You do realize that the public can NOT travel through a kitchen space to get to the restroom, right?
 
"There is a restroom in back..." You do realize that the public can NOT travel through a kitchen space to get to the restroom, right?

you might ask before you assume a path of travel and treat me like that. I believe I'll bid this 'friendly' site goodbye!
 
Commercial Kitchen area, Storage areas, office (if there is one), dining/service area all need to be counted.

Please note:

you need a thick skin on any web BB, Paul did not mean anything negative. We are here to help, Learn, Teach.
 
jjd3 said:
"There is a restroom in back..." You do realize that the public can NOT travel through a kitchen space to get to the restroom, right? you might ask before you assume a path of travel and treat me like that. I believe I'll bid this 'friendly' site goodbye!
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Boy.....That seems a little sensitive! I think VP was just trying to help, and did not seem to be unfriendly at all! But sometimes we feel as though we may need to point out something that may or may not be obvious! Why someone would ask for info and then get insulted when some extra was given....is beyond me!
 
Vegas Paul,

FWIW and IMHO, I don't think you owe anyone an apology Paul. You were just trying to help someone out that had started a vague post. I looked at that as you making sure someone didn't leap before they looked. I know I have been there, done that and had my butt handed back to me in pieces. I wouldn't sweat it. I need and appreciate it when someone doesn't assume I am going to see the obvious.

Keep chiming in, you are a good resource on here.
 
I was going to stay out of this one.. but I can't resist.

JJ, I hope you come back... you'll see (pretty quickly), that we all sometimes just agree to disagree. No offense is intended and non is taken by any of us. (Sometimes, even, when someone "says" something that P***** us off, we actually open the code book).

And sometimes, we just think "what an idiot" and move on..

If we always do what we've always done, we'll always have what we've always had. Think of this as an education.
 
I think we lost him... (maybe he was an ICC plant?) :D

jjd3, If you do check back, although I'd agree you overreacted to Pauls' post, you'll notice he apologized for any perceived offense. I've had run ins with a few hombres on this board. We usually dust ourselves off and get on with it. Like any group, we all have our own quirks and pet peeves. But at the end of the day I know I've got a group that I can turn to for help, advice or sometimes just a good laugh. So, if you have come back, why don't you tell us a bit more about yourself (maybe add a few things to your profile - we do look at those), get to know us a little better and who knows... you may just like it here after all.

For myself, I'm just intrigued by your screenname... my sons' initials are JJD and his college e-mail is 'jjd3'. Odd coincidence...
 
Almost forgot... All areas get calculated for occupant load - each space according to its' use - and the total is the OL for the restaurant. The fixture count provision is poorly worded; it's 1 per 25 (or portion thereof) up the first 50 OL. So a total OL of 15 would require 1 fixture, at 26 would require 2 fixtures. Also check for possible requirements for seperate facilities for men and women...

And maybe Paul didn't consider the possibility that the building met code when it was built?
 
Since jjd3 hasn't responded to ( or accepted) my apology, let me say this. In his initial post he "was wondering when a public restroom is required"... which indicated to me that he is not a code professional, and is more or less unfamiliar with any code requirements with regard to commercial buildings. After all, as I stated, a public restroom is ALWAYS required when a business is open to the public.

So, since he had voluntarily demonstrated his lack of knowledge, I merely offered additional (albeit unasked for) information that I thought might be useful. And I did it in my somewhat sarcastic typical attempt at some humor. Unsuccessfully, evidently. Thanks to all for not jumping on me, but sometimes when someone is offended they need to question whether they invited that offense by their initial query.
 
PV

You sure have changed since you relocated !!!!!!!

Something in the water there????
 
cda - it's a kinder, gentler environment... I have a great staff and very cooperative city management. I am fortunate and smart enough to know it! I suspect I will live much longer here, due to the lower stress and friendlier environment.
 
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