Can a designer provide a larger occupant load?

[Henchalwoog]

That's the odd part. The designer is arguing that the only reason those areas (I believe green, purple, yellow) are A-3 is because of their OL. Even if you're right, the designer clearly disagrees (or the OP told the designer prior to the current submittal to not use A-3), because the OL is their only justification for it being A-3.

Correct - everything but the red which is the "accessory" use desired - all others are listed at 15 sq ft per person to jack up the occupant load in the attempt to add them to the "A" - and I have no issue with the discussion of certain spaces and uses / occupancy classification however when it is used to alter the requirements for allowable areas then I have to question the intent.
The floor area is 62,000 so the allowable accessory is 6200 sq ft...the dance studio and associated storage, etc is 4700 sq ft; the office area, weight room and associated storage, etc is 4200 sq ft and the golf simulation area is 2200 sq ft and that is allowing the cafe area to be included in the main occupancy so the total accessory area is slightly over 11,000 sq ft which, if you do the math is almost 18%

 

[Tim Mailloux]

I think we might be going around in circles with the occupant load versus occupancy argument here. Let's take the occupant load off the table for now. Regardless of the occupant load, I wanted to check if you have any issues with the dance studios, weight room, golf simulator, and kitchen cafe spaces being classified as part of the main A3 occupancy? Personally, I don't have any issues with that approach. If this were my project, that is exactly how I would classify these spaces.

Once we can come to an agreement on that, we can dive into the increased occupant load the RDP assigned to those spaces, which I also have no issue with.

 

[Henchalwoog]

I think we might be going around in circles with the occupant load versus occupancy argument here. Let's take the occupant load off the table for now. Regardless of the occupant load, I wanted to check if you have any issues with the dance studios, weight room, golf simulator, and kitchen cafe spaces being classified as part of the main A3 occupancy? Personally, I don't have any issues with that approach. If this were my project, that is exactly how I would classify these spaces.

Once we can come to an agreement on that, we can dive into the increased occupant load the RDP assigned to those spaces, which I also have no issue with.

I guess I could agree IF I would know what your thought process is to allow them...I certainly have no issue if it is kosher - the code allows for accessory occupancies to be a part of the main occupancy...designed as non separated occupancies is similar

 

[Tim Mailloux]

Except for the accessory office area, the remainder of this facility is clearly an A3 occupancy in my eyes.

303.4 Assembly Group A-3. Group A-3 occupancy includes assembly uses intended for worship, recreation or amusement and other assembly uses not classified elsewhere in Group A including, but not limited to:

Amusement arcades
Art galleries
Bowling alleys
Community halls
Courtrooms
Dance halls (not including food or drink consumption)
Exhibition halls
Funeral parlors
Greenhouses for the conservation and exhibition of plants that provide public access
Gymnasiums (without spectator seating)
Indoor swimming pools (without spectator seating)
Indoor tennis courts (without spectator seating)
Lecture halls
Libraries
Museums
Places of religious worship
Pool and billiard parlors
Waiting areas in transportation terminals

Commentary: Structures in which people assemble for the purpose of social activities (such as entertainment, recreation and amusement) that are not classified in Group A-1, A-2, A-4 or A-5 are to be classified in Group A-3.

 

[Henchalwoog]

Correct...so you are thinking that since the list is not exhaustive (not limited to) that the weight room, golf area etc are assembly and that 303.1.2 (assembly less than 50 is considered "B" or a part of the main occupancy?

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

That's the odd part. The designer is arguing that the only reason those areas (I believe green, purple, yellow) are A-3 is because of their OL. Even if you're right, the designer clearly disagrees (or the OP told the designer prior to the current submittal to not use A-3), because the OL is their only justification for it being A-3.

And the only reason for the increased occupant load has nothing to do with ever intending to use either space as an Assembly occupancy, but is solely for the purpose of getting around area limitations related to occupancy classification.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

If a have a small assembly space with an occupant load under 50 people, I as the designer have the choice to either classify it as Group B under 303.1.2 or classify it as the more restrictive assembly occupancy.

Commentary: Assembly rooms or spaces within larger buildings that house other uses may be classified as other than Group A, depending on occupant load or the size of the space. Where the occupant load of the assembly space is less than 50, or where the floor area of the space used for assembly purposes is less than 750 square feet (70 m2), a classification of other than Group A is permitted.

 

[Tim Mailloux]

And the only reason for the increased occupant load has nothing to do with ever intending to use either space as an Assembly occupancy, but is solely for the purpose of getting around area limitations related to occupancy classification.

so what?

 

[Henchalwoog]

If a have a small assembly space with an occupant load under 50 people, I as the designer have the choice to either classify it as Group B under 303.1.2 or classify it as the more restrictive assembly occupancy.

Commentary: Assembly rooms or spaces within larger buildings that house other uses may be classified as other than Group A, depending on occupant load or the size of the space. Where the occupant load of the assembly space is less than 50, or where the floor area of the space used for assembly purposes is less than 750 square feet (70 m2), a classification of other than Group A is permitted.

That is certainly a compelling argument

 

[steveray]

If a have a small assembly space with an occupant load under 50 people, I as the designer have the choice to either classify it as Group B under 303.1.2 or classify it as the more restrictive assembly occupancy.

Commentary: Assembly rooms or spaces within larger buildings that house other uses may be classified as other than Group A, depending on occupant load or the size of the space. Where the occupant load of the assembly space is less than 50, or where the floor area of the space used for assembly purposes is less than 750 square feet (70 m2), a classification of other than Group A is permitted.

That’s a big negative woodchuck:




But Shirley I could find a solution for this…

 

[Joe.B]

I always found this a little annoying. Loaded with "shall" statements but followed by "or" qualifiers....

303.1.1 Small buildings and tenant spaces. A building or
tenant space used for assembly purposes with an occupant
load of less than 50 persons shall be classified as a Group
B occupancy.
303.1.2 Small assembly spaces. The following rooms and
spaces shall not be classified as Assembly occupancies:
1. A room or space used for assembly purposes with an
occupant load of less than 50 persons and accessory
to another occupancy shall be classified as a Group
B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.
2. A room or space used for assembly purposes that is
less than 750 square feet (70 m2) in area and accessory
to another occupancy shall be classified as a
Group B occupancy or as part of that occupancy.

 

[Henchalwoog]

I think Tim has it right - all this information appears to allow almost any space to be classified as an assembly occupancy if it is accessory to a main "A" occupancy if desired and in this case

 

[Tim Mailloux]

An accessory occupancy is a secondary or subordinate use within a building that is incidental to the main, or principal, occupancy…based on that description I would argue that the only accessory occupancies in this building are the office area and potentially the cafe . The dance space, exercise space & golf simulator space fall right in line with main use of the basketball courts. And even if we cannot agree on that, the code then gives us the option to classify these small assembly types spaces as group B or as part of the main A3 occupancy.

 

[steveray]

An accessory occupancy is a secondary or subordinate use within a building that is incidental to the main, or principal, occupancy…based on that description I would argue that the only accessory occupancies in this building are the office area and potentially the cafe . The dance space, exercise space & golf simulator space fall right in line with main use of the basketball courts. And even if we cannot agree on that, the code then gives us the option to classify these small assembly types spaces as group B or as part of the main A3 occupancy.

Agreed….but we still have no info on 10% or not…

 

[Tim Mailloux]

if its an accessory space, but we can classify it as part of the main occupancy as allowed by 303.1.1 and 303.1.2, does the 10% rule even then apply?

 

[steveray]

if its an accessory space, but we can classify it as part of the main occupancy as allowed by 303.1.1 and 303.1.2, does the 10% rule even then apply?

Unclear, but I would likely call them part of the A3 anyway

 

[Henchalwoog]

if its an accessory space, but we can classify it as part of the main occupancy as allowed by 303.1.1 and 303.1.2, does the 10% rule even then apply?

It would for the business office area but it will certainly fall under 10% with the additional "A" area classification.