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Can you use isolated footings (as opposed to continuous) without engineering?

Robert Ellenberg

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Feb 6, 2010
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210
Location
Louisiana
The more I study the code the more I realize there are subtle things I do but don't necessarily know why or if I am in compliance!

With crawl space foundations I have always poured continuous footings for the exterior and individual footings for masonry piers, usually 2'x2'x required depth and do not recall an inspector ever questioning it. But in reading R403.1.1 Minimum size it states, "The size of footings supporting piers and columns shall be based on the tributary load and allowable soil pressure in accordance with Table R401.4.1." Can you look at the floor and roof loads that a pier would be carrying and add them up using load and span tables from the prescriptive code? Or could you only get the tributary load with engineering calculations?

What say you?
 
Unless you are expecting some kind of point loading on a particular internal post/footing, I think the values in that table for footings can be used, and if I understand the table correctly, with the worst soil and the most allowable floors, a footing of 23x 23 is called for. So, the 2 x 2 footing would cover worst (normal) case scenario.
 
Unless you have 3 point bearing roof trusses/rafters, the piers are only going to carry floor loads.
 
Well, my age and senility is probably kicking in here somewhere; but, when I was a carpenter; we built pier and beam homes; usually 24 to 40' X 40 to 60'; and those homes will be here for many many many years to come. Because of the simplicity of the home; the piers only took on the floor load and could in some cases carry a load bearing wall. The beauty of th pier and beam structure is that you could crawl under the house and re-level it with shim every 10 years or so; or as needed.

But, then that was homes were built to last for many years; not like these temporary 2 and 3 thousand square feet temprorary glue and wood chip houses built by new home builders today.

Uncle Bob
 
Robert:

I don’t know of any reason why you wouldn’t normally be able to use both continuous and spread footings (ftgs.) on the same bldg. It’s for you to determine when you need an engineer, but it’s also your risk if you do it wrong and/or don’t know what you’re doing. You said ‘2'x2'x required depth for individual ftgs. for masonry piers’; what is the required depth, and how do you determine that?

You have to understand the soil conditions, be able to identify various soil types and their bearing capacities, and some of their idiosyncrasies. That is; do they heave if frozen, swell or shrink due to moisture changes, consolidate under ftg. pressure, etc. You should have some means of judging the soil compaction, know when you need to do mechanical compaction, know when you have to dig out a soft spot and fill and compact it in small enough lifts to provide proper compaction. And, you want to size your ftgs. so the soil pressure and thus the potential deflection (settlement) is about the same on all of them. GeoTech Engineering is serious business, too often ignored in light construction, but this is at your own risk. My Structural Notes say that you should hand excavate the last few inches to bot. of ftg. elev. so the ftgs. are placed on undisturbed soil, virgin soil or soil which has been properly compacted back up to b.f.e. I do not want you placing ftgs. on 3 or 4" deep tooth marks from a backhoe, and the like.

You have to have some understanding of how the two different ftgs. work. The continuous ftg. can basically be a little wider than the wall thick. + 2(ftg. depth) without any need for reinforcing (reinfg.) across the ftg. to account for ftg. bending under load, and then you only put in a few longitudinal bars in the bottom with 3" of cover above the soil. For example, a 12" wall on a 12" deep ftg. could be 3' wide without short cross reinfg. in most cases. A poured conc. wall is stronger than a grouted masonry wall, is stronger than a hollow mas. wall, is stronger than a pressure treated wood foudn. wall, generally in that order. And, as these walls get higher, they act as a deep beam, in the above descending order of strength for conc. or mas., not for wood though, which will help the ftg. span small soft spots, and that’s a good thing.

The spread ftg. (you said individual ftg.) might be placed on a soft spot, which can come back to haunt you, as the ftg. can settle uniformly or rotate during settlement. The spread ftg. can be depth + pier size + depth, in size, in each direction without much concern about reinfg. in either direct, but I’d still put a few bar in the bot., 3" cover again. If the ftg. gets larger in dimension than above you have two concerns, you need to start designing reinfg. to prevent bending failure and you must guard against a punching shear failure. Imagine an 8x8 post punching (pushing) through the ftg. under less load than might cause a 12x16 grout filled conc. blk. pier to fail.

Once you know the ftg. size and the allowable soil pressure you can calc. how much load that ftg. will carry, and that’s usually expressing as lbs./ft. for a continuous ftg. and in lbs. for a spread ftg. and pier. You determine the load on either type of ftg. by adding up all the bldg. loads which are applied to that ftg., and this is a function of your bldg. framing system and layout.
 
As inspectors, we check tributary loading all of the time for decks, roofs over decks, covered patios/carports, etc. Basically any extension that utilizes piers.

*All commercial decks and jobs require engineering, period.

*We know the types of soils in our areas. Unless the contractor provides engineering soil analysis, then the 1,500 psf soil bearing capacity is used.

*Bearing must be on virgin soil or engineered fill at which point we need documentation from the soils engineer.

*At a minimum we require all concrete piers to be 12x12 but we will accept 12" diameter sono-tube occasionally based on soil type (even though it is less than 144 sq-in.) for very small projections such as landings for stairs.

Here is a prime example of an open deck on virgin soil with an assumed 1,500 psf bearing capacity and through experience in our area that 1,500 is conservative(residential):

16x16 deck attached to the house with 3 piers, one on each corner and one in between.

16x16=256 sq ft. 10# dead + 40# live = 50psf = 12,800#

Half the load is taken by the ledger board in a simple design = 6,400#

Balance 6,400# is split between the 3 posts @ 25% - 50% - 25% or 1600 - 3200 - 1600

Right off the bat, we know that a 12"x12" footing or 12" pier for any pier is inadequate based on a 1,500psf soil bearing capacity.

Left & Right Piers: 16"x16" footer or 18" round pier

Middle Pier: 18"x18" footer or 24" round pier

This is verifying what they specified meets the minimums, this is not engineering but rather basic math. Anyone can shoot holes in this method but this is how we were taught to do it and it works. Of course, I am sure an engineer would use a different method to spec out this same thing.

I see a lot of large decks with undersized piers poured that I know no one else really figured it out.

Thanks
 
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jar546 said:
16x16 deck attached to the house with 3 piers, one on each corner and one in between.16x16=256 sq ft. 10# dead + 40# live = 50psf = 12,800#

Half the load is taken by the ledger board in a simple design = 6,400#

Balance 6,400# is split between the 3 posts @ 2,133# each
If this is a prescriptive computation, the load on each pier is incorrect.

If this is an engineering computation, the load on each pier is incorrect.

And the engineering "answer" is different than the prescriptive answer.

Prescriptive load distribution: 25%, 50%, 25%.

Engineered load distribution: 19%, 62%, 19%.
 
GHRoberts said:
If this is a prescriptive computation, the load on each pier is incorrect. If this is an engineering computation, the load on each pier is incorrect.

And the engineering "answer" is different than the prescriptive answer.

Prescriptive load distribution: 25%, 50%, 25%.

Engineered load distribution: 19%, 62%, 19%.
I will absolutely agree on your prescriptive load distribution.

I am not an engineer so I cannot comment on the engineered version.

I should have used a 2 pier configuration example to make it simpler rather than have to explain in more detail. My mistake.

Thank you for pointing that out.
 
GHRoberts said:
If this is a prescriptive computation, the load on each pier is incorrect. If this is an engineering computation, the load on each pier is incorrect.

And the engineering "answer" is different than the prescriptive answer.

Prescriptive load distribution: 25%, 50%, 25%.

Engineered load distribution: 19%, 62%, 19%.
Interesting. I can see the 25%, 50%, 25% assuming the piers are actually on the corner (unlikely as a cantilevered beam is more often the case), but am having trouble getting the 19%, 62%, 19%. Could you possibly elaborate on that?
 
George, would "continuous floor beam" vs "segmented floor beams" be a factor in the load distribution? (The "5/8 Rule"?)

19% -------62% (5/8)---------19%

________________________

25%--------50%-----------25%

___________ ___________
 
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IF you're including something like a three point bearing truss.. look at the interior loading on the truss plans.. they almost always have the highest uplift and gravity loading.

What we see mostly with interior piers is they tend to be oversized... no one considers the projection which is limited to prevent overturning and the thickness (to prevent punching shear)... Figure R403.1(1) details it pretty well. Commercial building - engineer it.
 
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