Child Daycare Restroom Facilities

[Papio Bldg Dept]

A current submission shows a supervised training restroom (adjacent to open classroom area) for the children, and a separate bank of restrooms meeting their IPC and ADA/ANSI A117.1-2003 plumbing requirements.

The sinks & toilets (4 of each provided) for the training restroom, are not meeting the ANSI A117.1-2003 requirements. Toilet seats are shown at 12-14" AFF, and the lavatory rim/counter is shown at 30" AFF. The toilet compartments/stalls are all ambulatory compliant, however the wheelchair compliant compartment is not provided in this grouping, but rather in a separate bank of restrooms 10' away. The sinks in the training restroom are not ANSI compliant either.

The applicant's reasoning is that children visiting this restroom will always be 100% supervised, and that children or adults requiring wheelchair compliant facilities may use the central bank.

Am I missing something? My first inclination is that, accomodations are provided, yet my second inclination is that, they are being segregated based upon their form of disability. Is this an experiential issue for the children? Am I wrong in thinking that 1 sink and 1 toilet shall at least meet the wheelchair clearance/compliance requirements?

Are children's wheelchairs the same size as adults when discussing fixture clearances and turning radiuses?

Any guidance on this issue would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. I can provide a floor plan if needed.

 

[rshuey]

My initial thought is that they have fully complied with the minimum building code and are just enhancing their facility to meet the needs of their customer base. no harm, no foul. Sounds like it will be a nice facility for all.

 

[Alias]

I would have to agree with rshuey as this sounds like they have met minimum and providing additional facilites that are not required. And with a daycare facility, you can never have too many bathrooms IMHO.......: )

 

[ewenme]

If the first restroom meets all the code requirements, then anything after that is icing on the cake, over and above the requirements, and it can be specialized all they want. Codes are minimums, and require minimums. You can always do better without fear of punishment. Don't over think it. I'm with Sue, more bathrooms is better for daycare.

 

[Builder Bob]

See ADA for children accessibility... while we cannot enforce this --- the designer and contractor should follow the guidelines.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Thank you for your support. I agree with all the comments from a common sense, or rational explaination, standpoint, however, I guess the issue I am struggling with pertains to the scoping provisions in the IBC (2006), specifically 1109.2.2 for water closet compartments:

1109.2.2 Water closet compartment. Where water closet compartments are provided in a TOILET ROOM or bathing facility, at least one wheelchair-accessible compartment shall be provided. Where the combined total water closet compartments and urinals provided in a toilet room or bathing facility is six or more, at least one ambulatory-accessible water closet compartment shall be provided in addition to the wheelchair-accessible compartment. Wheelchair-accessible and ambulatory-accessible compartments shall comply with ICC(ANSI) A117.1.

rshuey, alias, ewenme,

I don't think I am over thinking this one. It just doesn't add up to compliant when I read the scoping provisions. According to the scoping, you could have 20 fixtures over your required, but if you have them in twenty separate toilet rooms (not compartments), then all twenty would need to comply with the ANSI A117.1, unless otherwise exempted.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

See ADA for children accessibility... while we cannot enforce this --- the designer and contractor should follow the guidelines.

Thanks, 606.2, exceptions 4 & 5 would make the sinks compliant. Enlargening one of the toilet compartments to 60x59 appears to be the only compliant solution according to 608 and 609 (ADA/ABA Accessibility Guidelines).

It also just occurred to me that accessibility would be an awesome scrabble word.

 

[Architect1281]

In RI ammendments to IBC Ch 11 we have had a section titled Childrrens Features article 1111 added to model code.

http://sos.ri.gov/documents/archives/regdocs/released/pdf/BCSC/5976.pdf (start on pdf page 16)

even as a designer I provided them in a multitude of day care occupancies but not all - the also suggest that they would apply to schools

I say suggest because each article is worded like this

1111.1 Children’s Water Closets:

Where provided, at least one shall comply with the following:

so if one choses not to provide they are not required.

However the sizes and heights actually work very well - I tend to group the required elements to the common dimensions and supply 2 rather than 3 setups

 

[mark handler]

2010 ADAAG

604.8.1.1 Size.

Wheelchair accessible compartments for children's use shall be 60 inches (1525 mm) wide minimum measured perpendicular to the side wall, and 59 inches (1500 mm) deep minimum for wall hung and floor mounted water closets measured perpendicular to the rear wall.

604.8.1.4 Toe Clearance.

Compartments for children's use shall provide a toe clearance of 12 inches (305 mm) minimum above the finish floor

604.9 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children's Use. Water closets and toilet compartments for children's use shall comply with 604.9.

Advisory 604.9 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children's Use. The requirements in 604.9 are to be followed where the exception for children's water closets in 604.1 is used. The following table provides additional guidance in applying the specifications for water closets for children according to the age group served and reflects the differences in the size, stature, and reach ranges of children ages 3 through 12. The specifications chosen should correspond to the age of the primary user group. The specifications of one age group should be applied consistently in the installation of a water closet and related elements.

Advisory Specifications for Water Closets Serving Children Ages 3 through 12

Water Closet Centerline

Ages 3 and 4 12 inches

Ages 5 through 8 12 to 15 inches

Ages 9 through 12 15 to 18 inches

Toilet Seat Height

Ages 3 and 4 11 to 12 incheS

Ages 5 through 8 12 to 15 inches

Ages 9 through 12 15 to 17 inches

Grab Bar Height

Ages 3 and 4 18 to 20 inches

Ages 5 through 8 20 to 25 inches

Ages 9 through 12 25 to 27 inches

 

[TJacobs]

Hope the building stays daycare forever.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Do you enforce ANSI OR ADAAG OR ADA? Let them appeal the requirments for the 2nd restroom then you are off the hook.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Do you enforce ANSI OR ADAAG OR ADA? Let them appeal the requirments for the 2nd restroom then you are off the hook.

Thanks Rick. Currently, I have requested a letter from the designer with revision to plans showing/stating the provision for the training restroom to be upgraded (blocking in walls, etc.) when such a student enrolls. A letter of operations is also being requested from the owner/manager stating that such renovations will be provided when enrollment requires compliance.

I don't feel great about this, but at this point, it is back on the designer/owner, and I am hoping they choose to avoid the letters and put it in. I am still waiting to hear back from the designer.

We enforce 2003 ANSI A117.1.

 

[mark handler]

We enforce 2003 ANSI A117.1.

Time to crack your ANSI, the 2003 edition does have criteria for elements and fixtures primarily for children's use.

604.8.2 Size.

604.8.5 Toe Clearance.

604.10 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children’s Use.

Figure 604.10.2 Children'sWater Closet Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51

Figure 604.10.4 Children'sWater Closet Height . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

Figure 604.10.7 Children's Dispenser Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Time to crack your ANSI, the 2003 edition does have criteria for elements and fixtures primarily for children's use.604.8.2 Size.

604.8.5 Toe Clearance.

604.10 Water Closets and Toilet Compartments for Children’s Use.

Figure 604.10.2 Children'sWater Closet Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51

Figure 604.10.4 Children'sWater Closet Height . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

Figure 604.10.7 Children's Dispenser Location . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 52

Mark,

My ANSI is cracked...worn, thread-bare, broken-spined, dog-eared, highlighted, custom tabbed and red-lined to fix errors to the edition (there is even a coffee stain on page 79). All of the Children's dimensions are being applied, and the bathroom is ANSI compliant (all stalls are ambulatory/children compliant and the sinks are children compliant). However, the 'room' is not IBC, Chapter 11, compliant, as it does not make the scoping provision for a wheel chair accessible compartment in each room, and none of the exceptions apply.

 

[JBI]

Here's my best shot... "Where water closet compartments are provided in a TOILET ROOM " Is it a 'toilet room'? Sounds like they are using it to teach, wouldn't that make it a 'classroom'? I once had a Town Attorney suggest to me that a Church was a 'house' of worship, therefore the residential fee schedule applied not the commercial. Told him I needed it in writing. Saved the Church a few hundred bucks.

 

[Builder Bob]

Still doen't protect the developer or builder if ADA isn't followed - Basic concept of ADA - equal opportunity --- if classmate is unable to go to the3 potty training with his classmates, isn't he being discriminated against?

 

[Yankee]

If they are choosing to provide more fixtures than the code requires, those "more" still need to comply with the scoping of IBC as you say 1109.2.2, That's my take.

 

[rshuey]

Here's my best shot... "Where water closet compartments are provided in a TOILET ROOM " Is it a 'toilet room'? Sounds like they are using it to teach, wouldn't that make it a 'classroom'? I once had a Town Attorney suggest to me that a Church was a 'house' of worship, therefore the residential fee schedule applied not the commercial. Told him I needed it in writing. Saved the Church a few hundred bucks.

Did you inspect the sleeping rooms? Catholic Church?

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Still doen't protect the developer or builder if ADA isn't followed - Basic concept of ADA - equal opportunity --- if classmate is unable to go to the3 potty training with his classmates, isn't he being discriminated against?

I agree 100%, he/she would be discriminated against, and in all likely hood, the discrimination process would begin with the registration process if the accessible facilities do not exist prior to occupancy. I may ask them to remove a partition, since none of the compartments have doors.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Here's my best shot...QUOTE]JBI, It kind of goes back to the basic intro-duck-tory theory...if it walks like it and talks like it, then it must be a 'toilet room.'

 

[JBI]

Just trying to help, Papio.

rshuey - Yes, I did. The master bedroom was quite large and contained numerous rows of fixed seating... But I figure if the Big Guy likes an audience in His House, who am I to argue?

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Just trying to help, Papio.

You have. There are pros and cons on both sides of this issue, and you have helped give me other options and viewpoints that will be helpful when this discussion occurs with the tenant and designer. Thanks again.

 

[Yangarch]

Sorry, this is my first time posting, and I'm having problem posting this question as an independent thread--the forum is asking to invite people? Since this thread is on a somewhat related topic, maybe it's okay to post here?

I'm trying to figure out if there are regulations for spacing between side-by-side freestanding sinks for a daycare that I'm working on in Massachusetts. (Our state building code is based off IBC 2015). These are two sinks for children (toddlers) to wash their hands. The room also have 2 adult sinks which are accessible. I've found some guidelines for lavatory heights for different age groups, but strangely, I'm having a tough time finding out where to look for information about spacing between the sinks themselves.

Right now, I have 2 sinks spaced 4 inches apart on a 36" wall between the end of a counter and closet.

 

[cda]

Sorry, this is my first time posting, and I'm having problem posting this question as an independent thread--the forum is asking to invite people? Since this thread is on a somewhat related topic, maybe it's okay to post here?

I'm trying to figure out if there are regulations for spacing between side-by-side freestanding sinks for a daycare that I'm working on in Massachusetts. (Our state building code is based off IBC 2015). These are two sinks for children (toddlers) to wash their hands. The room also have 2 adult sinks which are accessible. I've found some guidelines for lavatory heights for different age groups, but strangely, I'm having a tough time finding out where to look for information about spacing between the sinks themselves.

Right now, I have 2 sinks spaced 4 inches apart on a 36" wall between the end of a counter and closet.

welcome

I think there is a day or two, after joining before you can free post.

Great first question, sorry not into sinks, give it a couple of days for great answers.