Chris&Dennis I need help

[ICE]

CO has a similar law on the books,$500 max for review and permit, $1,000 for commercial. But, we would in my opinion be allowed, and would separate any structural work from the PV system, and permit it under our fee schedule. If not, what, I can build a new house, and put a system on the roof, and get a $500 permit? My factory for a $1,000?

Well not quite like that. The building permit covers the racks and any modifications of the roof structure that might be required.

 

[ICE]

I really think that is the right thing to do also. I have seen so many light fixtures with UL stickers I have to shake my head and wonder how in the world it got approved. UL says they don't test for NEC standards but only test what the manufacturers ask them to test. If every UL fixture that was suspect got disapproved I am afraid there would be thousands of red tags on fixtures alone. I don't like it but I install it because it is an approved product.

I understand your side of the discussion and contractors install what they are given. As an inspector I look at it with a "what if" perspective. Most everything that is illegal or banned from a particular use was legal at one time. It took someone to say no before that changed.

I talked with the office manager today and he is leaning towards a padlock and warning sign but he wants a ruling from our electrical section head so that every inspector will do it the same way. While the padlock is better than nothing, I think it opens us up to criticism should there be a negative outcome. Placing a padlock is an admission that there is a danger and rather than remove the danger a padlock is a patch. Anyway it's not my decision.

 

[tmurray]

It took someone to die before that changed.

Fixed that for ya!

 

[Dennis]

I understand your side of the discussion and contractors install what they are given. As an inspector I look at it with a "what if" perspective.

Unfortunately I really don't think an inspector can inspect based on what if's. In those cases nothing would be compliant. What if someone adds another breaker with twin breakers to an already full panel. That is not the inspectors problem to deal with until it happens. "What if's" are the bane of EC's simply because it could be used any and every where. I realize the "what if" you mention is different but what if a child unscrews a main panel board? There is almost nothing to prevent situations like that. If this were seriously an issue then I am certain the NEC would change the call on this one. As it stands it is compliant and oh well-- you need to worry less but don't give up totally and your desire to see things aresafe.

 

[Dennis]

Fixed that for ya!

Unfortunately that is partially true or at least someone gets hurt. Look at how long it took to get TR receptacles-- I don't believe there were deaths involved but there were plenty of emergency room visits.

 

[ICE]

"What if" is perhaps a poor choice of words. That's true as applied to "what if" a panel board is altered after the fact. Maybe "fatal flaw" better suits the situation. In all honesty I will tell you that inspectors are not trained to think outside the box. The opposite is true and we are told, time and again, to stick to the letter of the code. That gives most inspectors plenty to keep busy.

I lost track of my place in the world. I shouldn't raise a hand when I perceive a fatal flaw. I am, after all, an inspector, in a box, with a code that I must follow without questioning beyond what is in that code.

Another stumbling block is the precept that if there is not a code for a given situation, then it didn't happen. That applies here. There is no code so there is no problem.

In the end I am exonerated no matter what simply because there is no mechanism to address what didn't happen.

A dead child might change that. Code changes are hard won so it might take several dead children. But hey, there is no code violation so it's not a poor reflection on me....and besides that, I'm just an inspector....what do I know...."Only what I'm told"

 

[Builder Bob]

Ul has a course for firefighters concerning photo electric systems

UL Knowledge Services - Firefighter Safety and Photovoltaic Systems - Non-CEU

 

[jwelectric]

In this thread I read “AHJ” several times.

What is an “AHJ”?

I will bet my last dollar that it is not a Code Enforcement Official as some think it should be.

We must remember that a code enforcement official is nothing more than an employee of the AHJ and does not have the power to demand anything more than what the AHJ has adopted into law.

If anyone can appeal the discussion that has been made by someone then the appeal goes to a higher AHJ with the last appeal being sitting firmly in the lap of the final AHJ. In my state it is the court of appeals.

So for some lowly code enforcement official to start saying that they are the AHJ goes to show just how wrong they are in at least one aspect of the electrical trade.

When I hear a code official start with the “what ifs” I simply ask the question, what if a bull frog carried a .357 magnum where would this leave snakes?

It is listed so go home and teach your children the safety concerning electricity and let other parents do the same with their children. I started my kids off at an early age while they were still small enough to crawl around in large switch gears.

 

[Gregg Harris]

In this thread I read “AHJ” several times.What is an “AHJ”?

I will bet my last dollar that it is not a Code Enforcement Official as some think it should be.

We must remember that a code enforcement official is nothing more than an employee of the AHJ and does not have the power to demand anything more than what the AHJ has adopted into law.

If anyone can appeal the discussion that has been made by someone then the appeal goes to a higher AHJ with the last appeal being sitting firmly in the lap of the final AHJ. In my state it is the court of appeals.

So for some lowly code enforcement official to start saying that they are the AHJ goes to show just how wrong they are in at least one aspect of the electrical trade.

When I hear a code official start with the “what ifs” I simply ask the question, what if a bull frog carried a .357 magnum where would this leave snakes?

It is listed so go home and teach your children the safety concerning electricity and let other parents do the same with their children. I started my kids off at an early age while they were still small enough to crawl around in large switch gears.

Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). An organization, office, or individual responsible for enforcing the requirements of a code or standard, or for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure.

Informational Note: The phrase “authority having jurisdiction,” or its acronym AHJ, is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agencies vary, as do their responsibilities. Where public safety is primary, the authority having jurisdiction may be a federal, state, local, or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshal; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department; building official; electrical inspector; or others having statutory authority. For insurance purposes, an insurance inspection department, rating bureau, or other insurance company representative may be the authority having jurisdiction. In many circumstances, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the authority having jurisdiction; at government installations, the commanding officer or departmental official may be the authority having jurisdiction.

 

[tmurray]

In this thread I read “AHJ” several times.What is an “AHJ”?

I will bet my last dollar that it is not a Code Enforcement Official as some think it should be.

We must remember that a code enforcement official is nothing more than an employee of the AHJ and does not have the power to demand anything more than what the AHJ has adopted into law.

If anyone can appeal the discussion that has been made by someone then the appeal goes to a higher AHJ with the last appeal being sitting firmly in the lap of the final AHJ. In my state it is the court of appeals.

So for some lowly code enforcement official to start saying that they are the AHJ goes to show just how wrong they are in at least one aspect of the electrical trade.

When I hear a code official start with the “what ifs” I simply ask the question, what if a bull frog carried a .357 magnum where would this leave snakes?

It is listed so go home and teach your children the safety concerning electricity and let other parents do the same with their children. I started my kids off at an early age while they were still small enough to crawl around in large switch gears.

So, since the only recourse to contractors in my area would be a court of law that would make the judge the AHJ in your opinion. Which is interesting because if inspectors are not an authority then they have no legal responsibility and it would all fall on the courts to ensure buildings are code compliant as the AHJ. When is the last time you have seen an officer of the court do a inspection? In your post you state "higher AHJ" and "final AHJ" so I'm willing to be you wouldn't discount inspectors from being AHJs, simply that there are many AHJs at different levels of authority.

 

[ICE]

So for some lowly code enforcement official

Anybody ever tell you that you have a way with words?

Posted by ICE

So now I have to convince the Chief Electrical Engineer

Remember this much. I can't do anything about anything because I'm just an inspector. The authority of the AHJ does not reside in me.

Anyway it's not my decision.

and besides that, I'm just an inspector

Anybody ever tell you that you don't understand words?

 

[jwelectric]

Anybody ever tell you that you have a way with words?

My wife

Anybody ever tell you that you don't understand words?

My wifeBy the way I did see what you had posted. The question was in general not directed to you in any way.

That was neat, thank you