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Classroom Security

Francis Vineyard said:
Somewhere in the code gives us the legal authority of proactive policing to confiscate a device that is designed for securing a door shut and is not being used for the time being based on the notion that it could be for an unethical purpose?

But "Mcgivering" knives and forks would be okay in your opinion? One could just as well extend a handle to the door lever preventing outward swing.
https://www.littlethings.com/dinner-fork-door-lock/
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No, it's based on the notion that it is a violation of the fire code.

Again, if there was a device that is in use to secure a door, action must be taken, regardless of the device.

Here in this forum, we are mostly officials. The courts expect us to know more. Since we know more we are expected to do more. When we do not do more we violate a duty of care to the public. If you locate a device that can only be used as a barricade device beside the door, you have at the very least a responsibility to report it to the authority having jurisdiction, usually fire officials. Should you not follow through with this, it is likely a court would find you negligent of your duties, even if you are not there in an official capacity.
 
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Would it make a difference if the retrofit locking device was of a type that is mounted on the door? To avoid getting in trouble by pointing to a particular retrofit product - what if the school had installed deadbolts in addition to their locksets? The deadbolt would not be thrown/engaged during your visit, but the hardware is on the door. Is your procedure the same (just curious)?

Here's an image that I had created for an article, which shows this scenario: http://idighardware.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Two-Operations.jpg
 
steveray said:
FV,

I couldn't confiscate anything, If I believed that someone intended to violate the code in this way, I would write a letter to the superintendent of schools, the Town Manager, FM, and my boss documenting that I saw what could likely become a violation and to instruct the occupants that they could be criminally liable if they used it. Kind of like when I bring my gun into a State forest hiking, it is illegal, but I figure if I really need it, I will take that risk.
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steveray thank you for that clarification.
 
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LGreene said:
Would it make a difference if the retrofit locking device was of a type that is mounted on the door? To avoid getting in trouble by pointing to a particular retrofit product - what if the school had installed deadbolts in addition to their locksets? The deadbolt would not be thrown/engaged during your visit, but the hardware is on the door. Is your procedure the same (just curious)?

Here's an image that I had created for an article, which shows this scenario: http://idighardware.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Two-Operations.jpg
Click to expand...

Installed but not "engaged" hardware would be a 1008.1.8? violation that I could (and would be required to) cite for abatement...
 
LGreene said:
Would it make a difference if the retrofit locking device was of a type that is mounted on the door? To avoid getting in trouble by pointing to a particular retrofit product - what if the school had installed deadbolts in addition to their locksets? The deadbolt would not be thrown/engaged during your visit, but the hardware is on the door. Is your procedure the same (just curious)?

Here's an image that I had created for an article, which shows this scenario: http://idighardware.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Two-Operations.jpg
Click to expand...
Ms. Lori, reading 10101.4.4 (2018) item 3, would you agree where locks and hardware and other device are permitted in the code are mounted "on" the doors not otherwise?
 
Francis Vineyard said:
Ms. Lori, reading 10101.4.4 (2018) item 3, would you agree where locks and hardware and other device are permitted in the code are mounted "on" the doors not otherwise?
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I was involved in this code change, and in our discussions the committee didn't differentiate between devices that were permanently mounted on the door and devices that were designed to be installed during an intruder situation. In either case, the door was intended to meet the requirements of this section of the code.

I was just wondering whether an AHJ would handle the two situations differently - a deadbolt or other auxiliary lock permanently installed on the door along with the typical latching hardware, or a barricade device hanging beside the door with the obvious intent of installation during an intruder situation (again - with other latching hardware). To me, neither of these scenarios would comply with the intent of the model codes, but some AHJs seem to think that their authority only extends to devices that are in place at the time of an inspection. For example, panic hardware locked with chains and padlocks is an obvious violation, but some think that panic hardware with a chain and padlock dangling from one panic device and not looped around the other is not within the AHJ's area of authority. I'm not an AHJ so I am not experienced with the legalities of enforcement, but the intent of the chain and padlock is obvious, even if the doors are not locked at that moment.

As always, thank you for sharing your insight and expertise.

- Lori
 
A deadbolt would actually make me less nervous than some of these devices. A deadbolt is typically in plain sight just a few inches from the lever, and everybody knows how to open it. Devices on the floor or over the closer arm are out of the line of sight and not intuitive.
 
Paul Sweet said:
A deadbolt would actually make me less nervous than some of these devices. A deadbolt is typically in plain sight just a few inches from the lever, and everybody knows how to open it. Devices on the floor or over the closer arm are out of the line of sight and not intuitive.
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I agree that a deadbolt is more intuitive and easier to operate than many of the retrofit devices, although neither of these products installed in addition to latching hardware would meet the model code requirements.
 
The part of this (type of) discussion that gives me the greatest consternation is that we find it necessary to have the discussion in the first place...
For my part, I live in an area where I don't need to lock my front door, and where the State enforces the Code at public schools. Makes life simpler. Also both of my children are out of school and I have no grandchildren yet.
These devices address a symptom of a much larger social disease. As our current 'healthcare' system demonstrates every day, symptomatic approaches don't work. In the instant case, they clearly increase the risk far more than 'cure' anything.
 
JBI said:
The part of this (type of) discussion that gives me the greatest consternation is that we find it necessary to have the discussion in the first place...
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I agree - I wish we didn't have to talk about this. Unfortunately, the conversation is taking place every day in schools, universities, business, churches..."What are we going to do to protect the occupants of our buildings?" It's tempting to consider a retrofit locking device that is less expensive than traditional hardware, easier to install, and readily-available on the internet. But there are potential unintended consequences which increase the risks of using these products, and we should all be aware of those risks and the requirements of the model codes so we can educate the decision-makers.

I would much rather be spending my time teaching people how to choose the right hinge to keep their door swinging for years to come. :)

- Lori
 
Had a conversation in regards to a Knox Box install on a bank, the problem was that the bank was going with an electronic entry lock, no key to be placed in the KB. Have not dealt with this issue to date.

This leads me to another question are any schools installing electronic key locks on the class room door and if they are, does that put the teacher in peril with a rowdy student?
 
"Had a conversation in regards to a Knox Box install on a bank, the problem was that the bank was going with an electronic entry lock, no key to be placed in the KB. Have not dealt with this issue to date."

No master key to override the electronic entry??
 
fatboy said:
"Had a conversation in regards to a Knox Box install on a bank, the problem was that the bank was going with an electronic entry lock, no key to be placed in the KB. Have not dealt with this issue to date."

No master key to override the electronic entry??
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We sometimes require either the Knox box with a toggle switch inside, to disable the security

Or a Knox key switch installed externally to overide the security


Or the business provide what means they use fob, code whatever and put in the Knox box

If you do a fob, sometimes they have to be programmed every thirty days, which makes the useless
 
fatboy said:
"Had a conversation in regards to a Knox Box install on a bank, the problem was that the bank was going with an electronic entry lock, no key to be placed in the KB. Have not dealt with this issue to date."

No master key to override the electronic entry??
Click to expand...

Halligan bar or demo saw is a master key....Just gets expensive for them....;)
 
fatboy said:
"Had a conversation in regards to a Knox Box install on a bank, the problem was that the bank was going with an electronic entry lock, no key to be placed in the KB. Have not dealt with this issue to date."

No master key to override the electronic entry??
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Information was not provided on the plans, will have to find out. Could put at the back entrance, shows keyed lock set on the plans. May not save the front door??
 
I have seen electronic credentials (card, fob, etc.) in the key box, or an actual key for key override, or a switch to disable the access control system. All of these are feasible and as far as I know there isn't a code requirement that addresses it, so it would be up to the AHJ to decide what they want in the box.

- Lori
 
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