College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

[brudgers]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

brudgers So are you saying there is no such thing as a corridor???

Or what is your take on rooms connected to a corridor??

I know coming form u code background, that this is a sore subject from way back.

Just trying to build to some minimum standard

It's not a sore subject.

Corridors are bounded by partitions. In the case of rated corridors, those are fire partitions [see IBC 708.1]

A functional area is not necessarily a room. Functional areas which are open to the corridor (i.e. not separated by a door) are part of the corridor and the fire partition bounding the corridor extends around these areas as well. This is the case with waiting areas, alcoves, etc.

Put a door between the functional area and the corridor and it becomes a room and cannot intervene (aka be within the bounding fire partitions) unless it specifically allowed.

In other words, you cannot subdivide the corridor (as bounded by the fire partition) into rooms (other than lobbies, etc.), but corridors can and do contain functional areas...like the lounges in the original post or as in a hospital where corridors are designed to hold equipment and patients.

My take on the case of functional areas containing toilets, if there's no door (such as you might find in a large facility like a stadium) then it can be within the bounding partitions of the corridor...though there may be other issues related to HVAC.

In my mind the big concern is slowing the spread of a fire which develops in an enclosed area to the corridor. If there's a door which might contain the fire and allow it to develop, then the wall which the door is in must be rated.

 

[cda]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

brudgers

that is an interesting take on the code

 

[texasbo]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Unbelievable. From someone who crucified a forum member for using the term "egress window" we get this gem of all gems.

Folks, this is "good ol' country code" if I've ever seen it. Entire national public service campaigns have been launched for threats to citizens that are less severe than this person.

Brudgers:Corridors are bounded by partitions. In the case of rated corridors, those are fire partitions [see IBC 708.1]

Hey, so far so good. This is about where reality stops, and fantasy begins.

Brudgers: A functional area is not necessarily a room. Functional areas which are open to the corridor (i.e. not separated by a door) are part of the corridor and the fire partition bounding the corridor extends around these areas as well. This is the case with waiting areas, alcoves, etc

No, Brudgers, this is the case ONLY for Foyers, Lobbies and Reception rooms that are constructed as required for corridors. Period. The code says absolutely NOTHING about a door being the defining element of what constitutes a room. Cite code section please. Also please cite code section that defines "functional area". You are flying by the seat of your pants, making things up, and living in your own world. You are dangerous.

Brudgers: Put a door between the functional area and the corridor and it becomes a room and cannot intervene (aka be within the bounding fire partitions) unless it specifically allowed.

Really? This must be a quote from the 2010 brudgers code with the 2010 1/2 Fantasy Supplement, because inexplicibly, I can't seem to find it in anything published by the ICC... Cite code section that says when you put a door between a functional area it becomes a room. Cite code definition of functional area.

I love you brudgers, I truly love you. You are soooo easy.

Brudgers: In other words, you cannot subdivide the corridor (as bounded by the fire partition) into rooms (other than lobbies, etc.), but corridors can and do contain functional areas...like the lounges in the original post or as in a hospital where corridors are designed to hold equipment and patients.

No, not in "other words", in "your words", and in your world. In your world, you can have a kindergarten with the "real" code requirement for fire resistive construction of corridors, and you just yank the doors off of the hinges and the requirement magically goes away.

You are a menace to the public, and I am so glad, so very, very glad that you are on this board.

Brudgers: My take on the case of functional areas containing toilets, if there's no door (such as you might find in a large facility like a stadium) then it can be within the bounding partitions of the corridor...though there may be other issues related to HVAC.

A large stadium isn't required to have rated corridors, and we don't care about "your take", we care about what the code requires. The two are almost always divergent. Please cite the code section that allows toilet rooms to be considered lobbies, foyers or reception rooms.

Brudgers: In my mind the big concern is slowing the spread of a fire which develops in an enclosed area to the corridor. If there's a door which might contain the fire and allow it to develop, then the wall which the door is in must be rated.

Well that's all wonderful and everything, but what's in your mind is really not of concern here. What we're worried about is what's in the code. Please, again, cite code section that makes the door the defining element of what constitutes a room.

Hell, even if we played along in your dream world, your "intuitive" concoction of code requirements is wrong. If I was going to just arbitrarilly throw away the code and start pulling requirements out of my ass, I'd much rather have the protection of a nonrated door (rather than no door at all) if I was subjected to the punishment of a "brudger corridor". But not you; you'd just let them delete the door and the rated wall, so that room (oh, sorry, "functional area") would contaminate the entire (fire resistant rated) corridor in about 4 seconds. Great call.

Brudgers, this fairy tale, made up stuff makes for interesting reading, but it doesn't belong in any on-topic section. Code Professionals don't fly by the seat of their pants like that. You may be very popular among your backwoods buddies, but such amateur approximation has no business here.

 

[texasbo]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

brudgersthat is an interesting take on the code

This is truly the understatement of the decade...

 

[brudgers]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

brudgersthat is an interesting take on the code

It's actually an observation about how corridors are used and function in the real world.

Visit a hospital.

Where do you find the nurse's station?

Go back in the surgical suite, where's the scrub sink?

Observe the ER on a Friday night under the full moon, where are the patients lined up on gurneys?

Since all are ordinarily deemed compliant, they can inform the way in which sensible people understand the code and apply it in other situations.

When I look at something that is common practice in sophisticated buildings and it doesn't make sense with my understanding of the code, then I've learned that the first thing I should question is my interpretation.

Going back to the hospital, a nurses station is not a reception area, lobby or foyer. It's packed with electronics, paper, equipment, medications, and unhealthy food. The scrub sink is a plumbing fixture. And the people on gurneys? Well they might actually receive treatment in the corridor.

A corridor is an exit access not an exit.

 

[texasbo]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

And of course, the goal posts are moved again. When the pursuit of an argument from fallacy fizzles out, simply create a new and unrelated subject to beat up.

Hospitals have very specific provisions allowing nurses stations to be located in corridors (407.2.2, 2006 IBC). They are also required to be sprinklered, have areas of refuge, smoke compartments, and myriad other safeguards that make any comparison of hospitals to what we're actually talking about irrelevant. So in fact, the comparison is anything but apples to apples.

Your example has nothing to do with rooms interrupting the required fire resistance rating of a corridor in the illustration that is being discussed.

Nor is the subject of this thread what we THINK the code should say, or allow. That's the subject of an entirely different conversation. The code as written, as it specifically applies to the example in the OP (not hospitals or big stadiums) prohibits fire resistant rated corridors from being interrupted by intervening rooms. If you feel the code should be changed to reflect "real world" violations, there is a process for that. While you're at it, you can make the case for chaining exit doors.

Brudgers:

A corridor is an exit access not an exit.

And as such, in the code as written, is required to provide a specified level of protection until an exit is reached. Yanking doors off of hinges and calling rooms some made-up term to circumvent this level of protection violates the intent and letter of the code.

 

[cda]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I guess if you can get your plans approved by the ahj as submitted or can get it past the baord of appeals, then it must meet code???

 

[texasbo]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I guess if you can get your plans approved by the ahj as submitted or can get it past the baord of appeals, then it must meet code???

cda, you're exactly right, because the AHJ does indeed have the final say; the only interpretation that really counts.

There is one more option: design buildings outside of jurisdictions, where there is no oversight of what you do, and you make up the codes as you go, you know, based on real world stuff you've seen around other places. After a while, you probably even start to believe that these fantasies actually ARE the code.

However, speaking only for myself, I can tell you what will happen when the plans for the kindergarten comes through our plan review department with rated corridors, but no doors, and some mickey mouse nomenclature calling the classrooms "functional areas". They're going right back out, with a big red stamp on them saying D-E-N-I-E-D!

And I would so LOVE to present that one to the Board of Appeals.

 

[brudgers]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

So there are two proposed explanations for why 407.2.2 exists:

1. Nurse stations and charting areas in the corridor constitute the major life-safety hazard within a hospital and Smoke Compartments, Fire Sprinklers, etc. are required because of this hazard.

2. Or, the provision exists because the Texbo's of the world would otherwise require nurse stations to be separated from corridors using self-closing doors "because it is an intervening room and is not a lobby, foyer, or reception area."

They really should promote you to "Building Official, Zoning Official."

 

[texasbo]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Ha! Can you say strawman?

Ok, we'll talk about hospitals since they seem to be so important to you lately. Heaven forbid we start another thread.

Actually, I don't even think the exception needs to be in the code, because most nurses stations I've seen comply with the other provisions of the code as written. I've never argued that "stuff" can't be in a corridor under certain circumstances (and that too is really the subject of another thread). I will not however, accept the corollary that therefore, a corridor can be in "stuff", such as rooms.

Oh, and I did get promoted to BOZO; quite a step up from my previous occupation as a cornpone designer.

 

[brudgers]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

I guess if you can get your plans approved by the ahj as submitted or can get it past the baord of appeals, then it must meet code???

That is exactly the opposite of my philosophy.

As I learned behind the counter, "Just because you got permit, doesn't mean you met the code."

That's why a Building Official, Zoning Official like my friend in Texas can be such an issue.

A Building Official, Zoning Official like that, unfortunately, creates an incentive for the approach you describe.

 

[brudgers]

Re: College dormitory "lounges" open to the rated exit corridor

Ha! Can you say strawman?

No I think, "Building Official, Zoning Official" is really a much better title for you.