Common Path of Travel

[steveray]

Look at drawing 1 there are 79 calculated occupants so two exits are required. I noticed a set of stairs across from the ladies restroom. Are there 2 exits from that area served by the stairs? If not the common path starts in the lower level.

I think that is just "stock room" hatching....or the door swings over the stairs.....

 

[cda]

I did not know that any jurisdiction was now using the NFPA as a building code. What is the jurisdiction's adopted building code? Not the adopted fire code.

Florida??????

 

[nitramnaed]

I think that is just "stock room" hatching....or the door swings over the stairs.....

Yes. There is no stair.

 

[FM William Burns]

The diagonal is based on the area requiring the 2 exits, not the kitchen...it has it's own exit it appears....7.5.1.3 seems like a "touch the badge" section without any hard parameters the official can require whatever he wants...IMOMay be different in NFPA, but ICC kitchen people would exit the kitchen door, diners would pick one of the 2 in that area....

I don't see a wall separating the Kitchen so if I'm not mistaken the "area" served includes the Kitchen as mentioned previously so the measurement must include the Kitchen area, hence lies the issue since the rear door can not be classified as an exit.......in my humble opinion. The problem remains a remoteness issue.

 

[cda]

I don't see a wall separating the Kitchen so if I'm not mistaken the "area" served includes the Kitchen as mentioned previously so the measurement must include the Kitchen area, hence lies the issue since the rear door can not be classified as an exit.......in my humble opinion. The problem remains a remoteness issue.

Kitchen has its own exit??

If the kitchen is included, don't think can meet the door separation requirement

 

[steveray]

Kitchen area...one exit required, rear left...done. People IN the kitchen can obviously egress through the kitchen.

"Dining area...2 required, separated by (1/2 or whatever) the diagonal of that area...done....If a room in a building needs 2 exits, they don't need to be separated by the diagonal of the building....Not sure how NFPA defines area, but a rated separation should have nothing to do with it unless it is a fire area.....

DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about NFPA 101 other than I do not enforce it...

 

[FM William Burns]

Kitchen area...one exit required, rear left...done. People IN the kitchen can obviously egress through the kitchen."Dining area...2 required, separated by (1/2 or whatever) the diagonal of that area...done....If a room in a building needs 2 exits, they don't need to be separated by the diagonal of the building....Not sure how NFPA defines area, but a rated separation should have nothing to do with it unless it is a fire area.....

DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about NFPA 101 other than I do not enforce it...

Remoteness is required in all codes even legacy ones and this should not be viewed as "room"

IBC Land

1015.2.1 Two exits or exit access doorways. Where two exits or exit access doorways are required from any portion of the exit access, the exit doors or exit access doorways shall be placed a distance apart equal to not less than one-half of the length of the maximum overall diagonal dimension of the building or area to be served measured in a straight line between exit doors or exit access doorways. Interlocking or scissor stairs shall be counted as one exit stairway.

Commentary: This section provides a method to determine, quantitatively, remoteness between exits and exit access doors based on the dimensional characteristics of the space served. .................................................................................................While technical proof is not available to substantiate this method of determining remoteness, it has been found to be realistic and practical for building designs except for the common building with exits in a center core and office spaces around the perimeter.

I agree that people will use the Kitchen even in a case where one may escape a non-fire event but the Kitchen by code is always considered a hazardous area and not considered part of a complaint MOE in all codes if my experience serves me correctly. Since the space of question is open the measurement is off and this is probably why the reviewer suggested the alternative exit (which is not a good practice for non-licensed design) public employee.

 

[steveray]

FMB...I agree in part...The kitchen cannot be used for the dining area exiting, but it can be used for the kitchen exit. "Area served" or "space served" is the key distinction. If the 2 doors are only serving the dining area, that is where the diagonal measurement comes in...

 

[tmurray]

In case it is any help, we define the minimum distance between required exits in Canada the same way. Half the maximum diagonal dimension of the floor area must be provided between 2 exits.

In my experience, if we're doing something the same on both sides of the border, it's probably a good idea.

 

[FM William Burns]

My point pertaining to this specific issue is the fact that the Kitchen is open floor area to the dining area and thus the entire floor area must be calculated into the exit remoteness/arrangement in accordance with code since the Kitchen door will not be considered any part of a MOE even for a Kitchen. The purpose for the door in a Kitchen is for deliveries. Now will people use it, of course but technically speaking and the way we teach it is that it is not an exit for terms of figuring the number, travel distance, CPOT or remoteness. The required exits for the building/area is two based on occupant load and therefore the two exits must be remote and the measurement is from corner to corner of the building since open floor plan in my humble opinion.

 

[JPohling]

I agree with Steve. If the kitchen exits independently then I would not include it in the diagonal dim. for separation of exits. I know nothing about NFPA exiting.

 

[cda]

My point pertaining to this specific issue is the fact that the Kitchen is open floor area to the dining area and thus the entire floor area must be calculated into the exit remoteness/arrangement in accordance with code since the Kitchen door will not be considered any part of a MOE even for a Kitchen. The purpose for the door in a Kitchen is for deliveries. Now will people use it' date=' of course but technically speaking and the way we teach it is that it is not an exit for terms of figuring the number, travel distance, CPOT or remoteness. The required exits for the building/area is two based on occupant load and therefore the two exits must be remote and the measurement is from corner to corner of the building since open floor plan in my humble opinion. [/quote']Boy, this thing is going to get a whole redesign.

I do no think there is enough exterior wall, to meet the half diagonal, if corner to corner is used????

 

[mtlogcabin]

The door arrangement in photo 3 meets the IBC requirements for separation

1005.5. Distribution of egress capacity.

Where more than one exit, or access to more than one exit, is required, the means of egress shall be configured such that the loss of any one exit, or access to one exit, shall not reduce the available capacity to less than 50 percent of the required capacity.

I agree with FB it is a poor design however i believe it meets code

 

[nitramnaed]

The reviewer is not including the kitchen as part of the exiting plan.

Remember this is not a issue about separation of exit doors. It's an disagreement over CPOT termination. The reviewer is asking for the additional exit door to satisfy CPOT requirements not separation of exits.

 

[cda]

The reviewer is not including the kitchen as part of the exiting plan.Remember this is not a issue about separation of exit doors. It's an disagreement over CPOT termination. The reviewer is asking for the additional exit door to satisfy CPOT requirements not separation of exits.

Still think reviewer is wrong on that point.

If the door gets shifted, what does that do for the CPOT?

Still looking at that bottom bathroom, and where is the CPOT, if the doors are shifted??

 

[cda]

The reviewer is not including the kitchen as part of the exiting plan.Remember this is not a issue about separation of exit doors. It's an disagreement over CPOT termination. The reviewer is asking for the additional exit door to satisfy CPOT requirements not separation of exits.

Have I suggested talk to the reviewers boss??

I think the reviwer is over thinking this, or reviwer just went to a class on CPOT???

 

[mtlogcabin]

Exception: A common path of travel shall be permitted for the first 20 ft from any point where serving any number of occupants and for the first 75 ft from any point where serving not more than 50 occupants.

I agree with where the reviewer has determined the CPOT ends. I do not believe the CPOT exceeds 60ft and does not serve an area of more than 50 occupants so I see no reason for him to try and require an additional door..

 

[ADAguy]

Not to make light of this, but why such an an "old" code? If in Florida where use of this code first came into play as a suggested alternative to the I-codes (at Disney World) it was referred to as "Mickey's" Code. They tried to get it accepted in California and delayed our code cycle by 6 years.

 

[nitramnaed]

Not to make light of this' date=' but why such an an "old" code? If in Florida where use of this code first came into play as a suggested alternative to the I-codes (at Disney World) it was referred to as "Mickey's" Code. They tried to get it accepted in California and delayed our code cycle by 6 years.[/quote']I guess he doesn't want to buy a new book.

 

[Builder Bob]

I don't believe the purpose or intent of exit separation or CPOT, whether based on IBC or NFPA, has anything to do with escape because of perpetrators with guns.

other emergency condition

open to interpretation

emergency -

noun, plural emergencies. 1. a sudden, urgent, usually unexpected occurrence or occasion requiring immediate action.



2. a state, especially of need for help or relief, created by some unexpected event: a weather emergency; a financial emergency.