Condo Tenant Improvement IBC or IRC?

[CoffeeLover]

We have a 63-unit condo building under construction. It was designed under the IBC 2018 and incorporates the required number of type A Dwelling Units and all other units were designed to be type B Dwelling Units per the ANSI 117.1 Accessible and Usable Buildings and Facilities.

There have been condo units that have pre-sold and we are putting together T.I. revision drawings for the changes to these units the owners are requesting. In one of the bathrooms, the toilet and shower are in a separate space from the vanities. Per ANSI 117.1 there needs to be 48 x 56" clear floor space around the water closet. The shower is on one side of the toilet and the wall on the other. The client would like to turn the shower into a steam shower and widen it so that the bench at the end comfortable fits two people. Right now the shower is 42" wide. In order to widen the shower, it would mean reducing the space around the toilet. Ideally we would like to take the clear floor space around the toilet down closer to 36" and increase the shower depth to about 54" wide.

What I can't figure is if this T.I. would still be held to the IBC since it is in a multi-family building that is under construction. It isn't an apartment, but a condo, so they will own this unit. In the past, when clients have bought condos in buildings that are already built, they could modify it as a single family residence under the IRC which allows them to customize the restrooms and kitchens without the ADA requirements. We have also had success with owners writing a letter to the AHJ when they purchased a condo in a building that was under construction requesting that the bathroom counter/sink heights be the standard 36" high rather than the 34" that the ADA requires as they were not disabled and therefore the lower counters/sinks were not needed and a hindrance. I've tried reaching out to our city building officials and inspectors about this issue and have not heard back as they are all swamped currently. I am wondering if anyone has encountered this and knows from experience if once a condo is purchased and is under single ownership and no longer under the general ownership of the rest of the building being built, if they can modify it to IRC standards specifically regarding kitchen and bath layout. Thanks!

 

[Mark K]

The building codes are not based on who owns the building.

Did the jurisdiction even adopt the IRC?

 

[mtlogcabin]

IBC and I would think Fair Housing might also be a factor to keep in mind

Is there more than one toilet room in the apartment?

 

[CoffeeLover]

The building codes are not based on who owns the building.

Did the jurisdiction even adopt the IRC?

Yes, they have adopted 2018 IRC. Condos are so tricky because they are owned just like a single family dwelling, but are built under the IBC so as to accommodate ADA needs of potential residents. Just a like a single family home, the condo unit can remodel to suite their needs...so it seems like such a grey area. Trying to tell a home owner that they cannot design a bathroom to their needs in the even that they ever decide to sell. That kind of restriction doesn't exist in residential design, as the next owner of a single family home would just come in and remodel to their needs if they require more clearances or lower casework, etc. Condos are not transitory like apartments or hotels. I've always thought this was an area of the code that needed more clarification.

 

[CoffeeLover]

IBC and I would think Fair Housing might also be a factor to keep in mind

Is there more than one toilet room in the apartment?

There are two bathrooms, but they had both originally been designed to Option A in Type B Dwelling Units, meaning all restrooms met required clearances which allowed for the sinks to remain at 36" high. If we move to Option B where only one restroom meets the the required clearances, then that restroom is required to have 34" sink height, which they don't want. I don't understand why the code permits the higher sinks if all restrooms meet the clearance requirements, but it does.

 

[mtlogcabin]

The IRC sends you to the IBC Chapter 11. Personally I would not be concerned with it and would let it go. Fair Housing is the only agency other than the local AHJ that could make an issue out of it.

SECTION R320
ACCESSIBILITY

R320.1 Scope.
Where there are four or more dwelling units or sleeping units in a single structure, the provisions of Chapter 11 of the International Building Code for Group R-3 shall apply.

R320.1.1 Guestrooms.
A dwelling with guestrooms shall comply with the provisions of Chapter 11 of the International Building Code for Group R-3. For the purpose of applying the requirements of Chapter 11 of the International Building Code, guestrooms shall be considered to be sleeping units.

Exception: Owner-occupied lodging houses with five or fewer guestrooms constructed in accordance with the International Residential Code are not required to be accessible.

IBC Chapter 11
1107.6.3 Group R-3.
In Group R-3 occupancies where there are four or more dwelling units or sleeping units intended to be occupied as a residence in a single structure, every dwelling unit and sleeping unit intended to be occupied as a residence shall be a Type B unit. Bedrooms within congregate living facilities, dormitories, sororities, fraternities, and boarding houses shall be counted as sleeping units for the purpose of determining the number of units.

Exception: The number of Type B units is permitted to be reduced in accordance with Section 1107.7.

 

[klarenbeek]

From a code standpoint, condos are the same as apartments, IBC would apply, not IRC. The structure is 63 units, not a one or two family dwelling. Condo vs. apartment is an ownership vs. rental legal issue, not a building construction issue. I think at least here condo owners are legally called "tenants in residence". They own a share of the building, not a full fledged parcel of property.

 

[bill1952]

Well, at a recent ICC A117.1 meeting it was stated that as far as condos, the owner did not have to maintain it as a type A or B, and could make whatever changes they wanted as far as accessibility was concerned. Representatives from HUD and the Access Board did not disagree. Made sense to me. So prove me wrong.

I'm not sure how a coop would work but believe you can alter your unit as you see fit.

 

[mtlogcabin]

There have been condo units that have pre-sold and we are putting together T.I.

People do back out of Pre-Sold agreements before the units can be occupied. I would not call it a Tenant Improvement (T.I.). I would refer to it as an owner requested alteration. The wording may be semantics but that is how the world seems to operate now.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Yes, they have adopted 2018 IRC. Condos are so tricky because they are owned just like a single family dwelling, but are built under the IBC so as to accommodate ADA needs of potential residents. Just a like a single family home, the condo unit can remodel to suite their needs...so it seems like such a grey area. Trying to tell a home owner that they cannot design a bathroom to their needs in the even that they ever decide to sell. That kind of restriction doesn't exist in residential design, as the next owner of a single family home would just come in and remodel to their needs if they require more clearances or lower casework, etc. Condos are not transitory like apartments or hotels. I've always thought this was an area of the code that needed more clarification.

It is not a gray area at all. It's crystal clear.

As has been pointed out above, the codes don't deal with ownership -- they deal with the type of building and the occupancy. The IRC deals with one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses -- period. The building you are asking about was constructed [correctly] under the IBC and it remains under the IBC for the duration of the structure. Sure, individual residents can alter their units (to the extent allowed under the declaration drawings). When they do so, they must follow the IBC and (if adopted in your jurisdiction) the IEBC.

 

[CoffeeLover]

Well, at a recent ICC A117.1 meeting it was stated that as far as condos, the owner did not have to maintain it as a type A or B, and could make whatever changes they wanted as far as accessibility was concerned. Representatives from HUD and the Access Board did not disagree. Made sense to me. So prove me wrong.

I'm not sure how a coop would work but believe you can alter your unit as you see fit.

Can you provide more information on when this meeting was? Hoping to find some kind of record of this as it would be hugely helpful. Thanks!

 

[BN4537]

2021 IRC R101.2 Scope.
​

The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction, alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, removal and demolition of detached one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses not more than three stories above grade plane in height with a separate means of egress and their accessory structures not more than three stories above grade plane in height.
Exception: The following shall be permitted to be constructed in accordance with this code where provided with an automatic sprinkler system complying with Section P2904:

1. Live/work units located in townhouses and complying with the requirements of Section 508.5 of the International Building Code.
2. Owner-occupied lodging houses with five or fewer guestrooms.
3. A care facility with five or fewer persons receiving custodial care within a dwelling unit.
4. A care facility with five or fewer persons receiving medical care within a dwelling unit.
5. A care facility for five or fewer persons receiving care that are within a single-family dwelling.

"Detached" is the kicker, IRC does not apply.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Can you provide more information on when this meeting was? Hoping to find some kind of record of this as it would be hugely helpful. Thanks!

The above was in response to the following post:

Well, at a recent ICC A117.1 meeting it was stated that as far as condos, the owner did not have to maintain it as a type A or B, and could make whatever changes they wanted as far as accessibility was concerned. Representatives from HUD and the Access Board did not disagree. Made sense to me. So prove me wrong.

I'm not sure how a coop would work but believe you can alter your unit as you see fit.

The disconnect remains that, while an owner can choose to add or remove features of a type A or type B adaptable unit, that doesn't address which code applies if they choose to do so. If the condo unit is not located in a detached one- or two-family dwelling structure or a townhouse, it doesn't fall under the purview of the IRC -- irrespective of the forum of ownership.

A single building containing 63 dwelling units is unlikely to be 63 townhouse units, so it falls under the IBC.

 

[bill1952]

Can you provide more information on when this meeting was? Hoping to find some kind of record of this as it would be hugely helpful. Thanks!

Well, it was a Thursday afternoon, as we meet every other Thursday I think over 2 years and not done. I'll ask. Upper management people from HUD, Access Board, and ICC. I can't promise a quick reply.

I did Google the question in several forms and am convinced between statements in ICC A117.1 meeting and multiple sites that if you buy and have deed to a Type A or B unit, you can do whatever you want in terms of accessibility. It's about public accomodation, and unless your running a business that involves opening to the public, ADA and fair housing for not apply.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Do you use the 2018 IEBC? Cannot reduce the accessibility of the unit:

305.2 Maintenance of facilities. A facility that is constructed
or altered to be accessible shall be maintained accessible
during occupancy.
305.3 Extent of application. An alteration of an existing
facility shall not impose a requirement for greater accessibility
than that which would be required for new construction.
Alterations shall not reduce or have the effect of reducing
accessibility of a facility or portion of a facility.

 

[CoffeeLover]

Well, it was a Thursday afternoon, as we meet every other Thursday I think over 2 years and not done. I'll ask. Upper management people from HUD, Access Board, and ICC. I can't promise a quick reply.

I did Google the question in several forms and am convinced between statements in ICC A117.1 meeting and multiple sites that if you buy and have deed to a Type A or B unit, you can do whatever you want in terms of accessibility. It's about public accomodation, and unless your running a business that involves opening to the public, ADA and fair housing for not apply.

I really appreciate you asking. This train of thought, of owning a private property should allow the owner to decide the level of accessibility. I guess my question isn't entirely clear to most, in that I'm not really suggesting that the condo would fall under IRC so much as being exempt from the accessibility requirements of the IBC that it was originally built under.

 

[jar546]

Yes, they have adopted 2018 IRC. Condos are so tricky because they are owned just like a single family dwelling, but are built under the IBC so as to accommodate ADA needs of potential residents. Just a like a single family home, the condo unit can remodel to suite their needs...so it seems like such a grey area. Trying to tell a home owner that they cannot design a bathroom to their needs in the even that they ever decide to sell. That kind of restriction doesn't exist in residential design, as the next owner of a single family home would just come in and remodel to their needs if they require more clearances or lower casework, etc. Condos are not transitory like apartments or hotels. I've always thought this was an area of the code that needed more clarification.

Condos are not single-family residences that are covered under the IRC. They essentially own the airspace within the box that they purchase. They are all commercial buildings with commercial construction and commercial requirements. There is absolutely no way you could use the IRC for a condominium.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I did Google the question in several forms and am convinced between statements in ICC A117.1 meeting and multiple sites that if you buy and have deed to a Type A or B unit, you can do whatever you want in terms of accessibility. It's about public accomodation, and unless your running a business that involves opening to the public, ADA and fair housing for not apply.

I think the problem here is that the building hasn't been completed yet, and no COs have been issued. As new construction, the builder has a permit to build in accordance with the approved plans, which have to comply with the IBC -- including the scoping portions of Chapter 11. Chapter 11 says a percentage must be type A dwelling units, and all the others must be type B dwelling units.

I can see all kinds of legal issues here that are way above my pay grade. First up is that I suspect the buyers do not yet own "their" units. I would be very surprised if an unfinished dwelling unit can be bought or sold without a certificate of occupancy. So to change the plan of unit #47, the permittee (the developer) would have to file an amended plan for that unit, which would have to be approved by the building official. What basis does the building official have to approve such a change? Unless Idaho amended the scoping for accessible/adaptable units, I don't think the building official can approve an amended floor plan that doesn't include the required type A or type B features and dimensions.

It might be a different matter if an individual unit owner comes in after taking possession and requests a permit to alter their unit. At this point (if I understand the situation correctly) the buyers don't own anything -- all they probably have is a contract to purchase.

I dunno -- I'm not a lawyer and never claimed to be one.

 

[bill1952]

For the record, I never suggested this was other than IBC. Also I stated the private owners had to own it.

I don't know if anything prevents it being sold before completion.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I think the problem here is that the building hasn't been completed yet, and no COs have been issued. As new construction, the builder has a permit to build in accordance with the approved plans, which have to comply with the IBC -- including the scoping portions of Chapter 11. Chapter 11 says a percentage must be type A dwelling units, and all the others must be type B dwelling units.

I can see all kinds of legal issues here that are way above my pay grade. First up is that I suspect the buyers do not yet own "their" units. I would be very surprised if an unfinished dwelling unit can be bought or sold without a certificate of occupancy. So to change the plan of unit #47, the permittee (the developer) would have to file an amended plan for that unit, which would have to be approved by the building official. What basis does the building official have to approve such a change? Unless Idaho amended the scoping for accessible/adaptable units, I don't think the building official can approve an amended floor plan that doesn't include the required type A or type B features and dimensions.

It might be a different matter if an individual unit owner comes in after taking possession and requests a permit to alter their unit. At this point (if I understand the situation correctly) the buyers don't own anything -- all they probably have is a contract to purchase.

I dunno -- I'm not a lawyer and never claimed to be one.

This is exactly why there is a board of appeals.