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Congregate Living R-3

F

Fritz

Bronze Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
59
Location
Fargo, ND
I have been contemplating whether an R-3 congregate living facility can be constructed under the IRC.

I know that all R-3s are not under the IRC. I am just trying to put together the logic why it can not be under the IRC.

Fritz
 
R-2 Residential occupancies containing sleeping units or more than two dwelling units where the occupants are primarily permanent in nature, including:

Apartment houses

Boarding houses (not transient)

Convents

Dormitories

Fraternities and sororities

Hotels (nontransient)

Monasteries

Motels (nontransient)

Vacation timeshare properties

Congregate living facilities with 16 or fewer occupants are permitted to comply with the construction requirements for Group R-3.

I am just trying to put together the logic why it can not be under the IRC.

Why? They are permitted to be constructed under the IRC if 16 or fewer occupants .
 
It's probably based on Federal fair housing requirements and court decisions relating to it.

Be aware that many jurisdictions have wound up in Federal court for refusing to treat a group home as a single family dwelling.
 
brudgers said:
It's probably based on Federal fair housing requirements and court decisions relating to it.Be aware that many jurisdictions have wound up in Federal court for refusing to treat a group home as a single family dwelling.
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Not that it wouldn't be.....but that's very true, saw it here back in the early 90's with another agency, those paper cuts really can hurt.
 
We have no problem calling it a single family home, and location is not a concern. But the question remains, IBC -R-3 or IRC, one and two family.........

In the IBC there are 4 items listed in the R-3, also there is a specific paragraph stating that 2 of those items can be in the IRC. So by exclusion one is led to believe that a congregate living is an R-3 and does not fit into the IRC.

Fritz

The rest of the story so to speak, It is not a group home, but a congregate housing conversion next to the college.
 
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Nope, not IRC. Can be R-3 with fewer than 16... but still IBC.

Some folks mistakenly think that R-3 = IRC, but of course, there is no occupancy classification for a single family home built under the IRC. (No construction type either!)
 
Well here's my take:

1. if this is over 16 occupants it falls under R-2.

2. Under 16- R-3

Can it be built under IBC or IRC?

1. IBC

Only adult and child care with 5 or less occupants (all must capable of self preservation) can it be built under IRC. Any occupants needing help places it under IBC I-group. Any total of occupants over 5 places in in other R groups.

Don't see any other exception to let it be IRC.
 
I am getting use to the taste of humble pie.

VP & FredK

You guys are correct my "They are permitted to be constructed under the IRC if 16 or fewer occupants " was based on a MT state ammendment.
 
Fritz said:
We have no problem calling it a single family home, and location is not a concern. But the question remains, IBC -R-3 or IRC, one and two family.........In the IBC there are 4 items listed in the R-3, also there is a specific paragraph stating that 2 of those items can be in the IRC. So by exclusion one is led to believe that a congregate living is an R-3 and does not fit into the IRC.

Fritz

The rest of the story so to speak, It is not a group home, but a congregate housing conversion next to the college.
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After you call it a single family home, how exactly do you manage to conclude that it's not a one family dwelling?
 
FredK said:
Well here's my take:1. if this is over 16 occupants it falls under R-2.

2. Under 16- R-3

Can it be built under IBC or IRC?

1. IBC

Only adult and child care with 5 or less occupants (all must capable of self preservation) can it be built under IRC. Any occupants needing help places it under IBC I-group. Any total of occupants over 5 places in in other R groups.

Don't see any other exception to let it be IRC.
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Unless you apply a similar limit on occupants to biological families, you may be afoul of Federal case law in regards to FHA.

See http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-23.ZO.html

Legal definitions of "family" are often problematic...unless they're along the lines of "any household with at least one person capable of legally entering into a contract."
 
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construction requirements for Group R-3.

TABLE 503

R-2 V-B construction 2 stories 7,00 sq ft max area

R-3 V-B construction 3 stories Unlimited sq ft max area

I bet the Fire Marshal loves this one
 
My comment as to a single family home was a knee jerk answer to Brudgers comment on the fair housing issue. I do understand the group home comment, which was probably more of a Zoning issue. Where this, aside from zoning, was intended to discuss the congregate living issue.

Thanks for all the input.

Fritz
 
Fritz said:
I have been contemplating whether an R-3 congregate living facility can be constructed under the IRC. I know that all R-3s are not under the IRC. I am just trying to put together the logic why it can not be under the IRC.

Fritz
Click to expand...
Back to the original question...

Why are you hunting for reasons to keep it out of the IRC?
 
I know it appears that I am hunting to keep it out of the IRC. But I am not against one or the other, I am looking for the right answer, consistency and reproduciblity for other properties.
 
"Congregate Living Facilities" is an IBC kludge. Every One Family Dwelling could meet the definition if a bedroom is considered a sleeping unit.

Likewise, it is difficult to see how a Congregate Living Facility would fail to meet the definition of "Dwelling Unit" within the IRC. Since, the IRC does not have occupancy restrictions it is difficult to see how it can be excluded.

As an aside, "Family" remains undefined in both codes...and the place were it is typically defined is in the Zoning Code, if at all.
 
Well don't call it an Congregate Living Facilities and build one large single family home. No limit on the size a single family can be or number of bedrooms/baths. Heck the largest home I reviewed was just under 21,000 sq ft. Contained three bedrooms and 6 baths and a seperate maids quarters of 3 bedroom and 2 baths.

Just don't come in later and want to change it to something else without meeting the R-3 requirements.
 
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