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Converting Fire Exit Hardware to Electric control and maintaining rating

M

mjohnson

Guest
Hi,

We are spec'ing doors and hardware for a college renovation project. The area is multi-purpose recreational space on the first floor. Some of our interior doors will end up being fire-rated and we thus will spec the appropriate fire exit hardware. BUT, from a building controls point of view, we like retro-fitting Von Duprin 33 surface mounted vertical rod exit devices with SDC quiet duo solenoids to retract the latch, instead of Von Duprin's original QEL (sorry Lorrie) because it requires less initial power and works a bit better with our BAS.

My Questions are:

Does the retro fit as described affect the fire exit hardware's original UL 10C postive pressure, or UL305 panic rating? I know that you can use electric control as long as it is connected into the fire system, which it will be, I am wondering about what the physical retro-fit does to the rating?

Also, if we swapped the Von Duprin push bar guts from the fire-exit to the panic/dogging in order to make the SDC el retrofit install easier, would that affect the fire exit hardware's rating? There will be no mechanical dogging, still electric connected to the fire system, just the panic/dogging style guts make for a cleaner retro-fit using the SDC el set, and we have some old panic/dogging crashbar guts in stock.

Thanks for taking time to consider my question, we want to follow code and you are the folks that help us do so!
 
not a door hardware person, but are you trying to put a chevrolet engine into a ford???

""""" Also, if we swapped the Von Duprin push bar guts from the fire-exit to the panic/dogging in order to make the SDC el retrofit install easier, would that affect the fire exit hardware's ratin"""""

If so I would say the listing is gone.

maybe if you send it to sdc for installation, you keep the listing???

http://www.sdcsecurity.com/docs/LR100_Datasheet.pdf
 
Agree with cda to ask SDC if it installs the hardware in the device if ALL the ratings are met. Builder Bob's point is well taken also that if the doors are going to be fire rated and be "LBR" (less bottom rod) then thermal bolt(s) are needed and the door should be shipped and prepped that way. While the thermal bolts can be field installed the agruement goes in circles whether the installation should be by a certified organization since the door was not built and spec'd with them.
 
Okay now Lori is going to have to tell us un door people about;;;

"""thermal bolt""
 
Less Bottom Rod

LBR option is available, using a spring loaded auxiliary latch bolt installed in the lower door edge. When exposed to heat the auxiliary latch bolt releases, keeping the doors in alignment and closed during a fire. UL listed 3 hours on hollow metal doors double egress, 90 minute swinging same direction, and 20 minutes wood doors (consult wood door manufacturer). Fits door stiles as narrow as 3 5/8".

http://us.allegion.com/Products/exit_devices/touchbar/9899/Pages/default.aspx
 
mjohnson said:
Hi,We are spec'ing doors and hardware for a college renovation project. The area is multi-purpose recreational space on the first floor. Some of our interior doors will end up being fire-rated and we thus will spec the appropriate fire exit hardware. BUT, from a building controls point of view, we like retro-fitting Von Duprin 33 surface mounted vertical rod exit devices with SDC quiet duo solenoids to retract the latch, instead of Von Duprin's original QEL (sorry Lorrie) because it requires less initial power and works a bit better with our BAS.

My Questions are:

Does the retro fit as described affect the fire exit hardware's original UL 10C postive pressure, or UL305 panic rating? I know that you can use electric control as long as it is connected into the fire system, which it will be, I am wondering about what the physical retro-fit does to the rating?

Also, if we swapped the Von Duprin push bar guts from the fire-exit to the panic/dogging in order to make the SDC el retrofit install easier, would that affect the fire exit hardware's rating? There will be no mechanical dogging, still electric connected to the fire system, just the panic/dogging style guts make for a cleaner retro-fit using the SDC el set, and we have some old panic/dogging crashbar guts in stock.

Thanks for taking time to consider my question, we want to follow code and you are the folks that help us do so!
Click to expand...
I agree Lori is the one to talk to

But anytime you alter a rated device, it alters and nullifies the listing.

You will need to contact the manufacturer
 
As far as I know, you can't swap the Von Duprin "guts" and maintain the listing of the fire exit hardware. Are you sure the QEL won't provide the necessary function? It doesn't require the current draw that the EL device does. I'm not concerned with selling products...I just want to make sure you're getting what you need without voiding a label or breaking the bank.

With regard to the "thermal bolt" AKA auxiliary fire pin...this is a pin installed on the edge of one leaf of a pair when less bottom rod (LBR) fire exit hardware is used. There is a corresponding hole in the edge of the other leaf with a plastic cap. If there is a fire, the bolt projects, aligning the doors and maintaining the compartmentalization. It is not an egress issue because the bolt only projects when exposed to a temp of about 450 degrees inside of the door at 12" off the floor. Egress is not the main concern at that point. Here is an article about LBR devices if anyone wants more info: http://idighardware.com/2012/07/decoded-less-bottom-rod-fire-exit-hardware/.
 
Thanks to all

LGreene said:
As far as I know, you can't swap the Von Duprin "guts" and maintain the listing of the fire exit hardware. Are you sure the QEL won't provide the necessary function? It doesn't require the current draw that the EL device does. I'm not concerned with selling products...I just want to make sure you're getting what you need without voiding a label or breaking the bank.With regard to the "thermal bolt" AKA auxiliary fire pin...this is a pin installed on the edge of one leaf of a pair when less bottom rod (LBR) fire exit hardware is used. There is a corresponding hole in the edge of the other leaf with a plastic cap. If there is a fire, the bolt projects, aligning the doors and maintaining the compartmentalization. It is not an egress issue because the bolt only projects when exposed to a temp of about 450 degrees inside of the door at 12" off the floor. Egress is not the main concern at that point. Here is an article about LBR devices if anyone wants more info: http://idighardware.com/2012/07/decoded-less-bottom-rod-fire-exit-hardware/.
Click to expand...
Thanks to everyone who chipped in to this discussion, and thanks to Lori for the great post on thermal bolt usage.

I was actually woefully unaware that LBR is used to meet an accessibility standard (which one?), as a former locksmith, I just knew that the LBR spec saved me some headaches associated with the bottom latches in high traffic environments.

Really appreciate the feedback!
 
LBR is used to meet an accessibility standard (which one?) That would be the 2010 ADA - 20 year revision update.
 
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